Horror Romance and Land of the Beautiful Dead

Short Description

Can horror and romance coexist? Friend and author Laura J. Mayo joins me to discuss “Land of the Beautiful Dead” by R. Lee Smith. We explore the complexities of combining horror elements (zombies, staking, the apocalypse) with romantic themes, how this book makes us feel, and unlikable and defiant characters who are forged by context. Is it all a metaphor?! (Yes, of course it is!)

Show Notes

Discussed: Land of the Beautiful Dead by R. Lee Smith

Guest: Laura J. Mayo

Website | Bluesky | Instagram

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Transcript

Andrea Martucci: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to Shelf Love, a podcast about romance novels and how they reflect, explore, challenge, and shape desire. I'm your host, Andrea Martucci, and on this episode, I am joined in person by Laura J. Mayo, my friend and author of How to Summon a Fairy Godmother.

And today, we are going to discuss Horror Romance, aka Horroromance, and Land of the Beautiful Dead by R. Lee Smith. Laura, who are you, how are you, and how do we know each other?

Laura J. Mayo: Hi, I'm Laura J. Mayo, author, like you said, of How to Summon a Fairy Godmother. We've known each other for a while since my daughter was probably a couple months old, and yours was a little bit younger, but we met, I guess peripherally, because I wasn't in the breastfeeding support group with you.

Andrea Martucci: Oh, you weren't?

Laura J. Mayo: No, I was brought in. I was welcomed into the fray later. So I had met you peripherally through a friend, and we were first time moms, together and yeah, started out that way and then realized we had a lot more in common than just our babies and became friends.

Andrea Martucci: Those were the good days.

Laura J. Mayo: I know, those were so fun.

Andrea Martucci: And now our children are older and loud.

Laura J. Mayo: It's a nice circle because they're downstairs playing with each other again.

Andrea Martucci: Yes, and we actually haven't even seen each other in six years.

Laura J. Mayo: It's been a while, yeah.

Andrea Martucci: I don't know if I knew though that you had aspirations to be a writer at the time. Did you?

Laura J. Mayo: Nobody knew, oh yeah I did definitely did nobody knew My husband barely knew.

I, I don't know why I kept it so close. I've always written and just never told anyone about it.

It was my daughter that caught me, so Isla caught me writing. I was just like finishing up something on my phone, and it wasn't How to Summon a Fairy Godmother, it was a different book, but she was like, put your phone down, you know, and I was like, I know, I know, I just have to finish this like one sentence, and she's like, well what are you doing, and I was like, I'm just writing like a book, and so she's like, well read it.

I was like, right now? And she's yeah, so I read what I had written, and she was like, that was really good, and of course she was going to say that because she's seven, and so she really liked it.

I've always wanted to write about the stepsisters from Cinderella, and how I don't know that we're getting the full story, and history is written by the victors, and we're getting Cinderella's side, and nobody else's.

And so I was like, yeah, I've always wanted to write this story, so I did, and I'd write it and read little pieces to her. And she'd go oh, you should get this published and I was like, it's really difficult to do

Andrea Martucci: like, all right, kiddo

Laura J. Mayo: like, it's really difficult to do. But at the same time, I was getting really depressed with myself and down on myself about what I was teaching her with that.

Like, Listen, my beautiful darling, when you have a dream, Bury it in the backyard, don't tell anyone about it ever, and then just pretend it's not rotting there. And then go about your life. You're welcome for the beautiful words.

So I was like I'll try. I've always wanted to be published. I'll give it a shot and see how it goes. And so I was like, my only goal was to get an agent. If I get an agent, great. If I don't, that's okay. I've shown her that it's okay if you fail at something. I'm still a writer.

So I tried to get an agent. I got some reads. In the midst of that I had seen the inbox for Orbit Works, and they were taking unagented submissions, so I was like, whatever, it's a new inbox, it's a new editor, go [00:03:00] for it.

And then didn't hear anything. So the end of that year, I'd gotten the final rejection from the agents and was just like, okay that's great, and I had this one thing hanging out from Orbit. And I just sent a quick email being like, hey just following up just because I was like, I'm ready to,

Andrea Martucci: close the door,

Laura J. Mayo: yeah, shut the book on it.

So I sent a quick email and they got back to me so fast, and were like no, no, no can we hold on to this for a few more weeks, and I was like, yes. And poor Will, my husband Will's the only one that knows.

He came home and I was like, they told me my book is in acquisitions at Orbit? I spent the next three weeks freaking out. Being like, what is acquisitions? Like, how am I gonna know? And then, yeah, they got back to me. I ended up signing unagented. I didn't have an agent at the time, do now, thankfully. But yeah, so that was the whole background of that.

Andrea Martucci: So it came out in October of this year, 2024, so that was last year?

Laura J. Mayo: Yep, so It was a brand new imprint, so it went so fast, like way faster than normal publishing does because of how new it was. So it's been really exciting because it's I'm the second one ever released under this new imprint and it's been really fun because we're all just new and

Andrea Martucci: figuring it out,

Laura J. Mayo: doing it together, yeah, so it's been really great and the people are like so lovely there so yeah, it's been really fun.

Andrea Martucci: I was on my Shelf Love account and all of a sudden like author Laura J. Mayo follows me. I'm like, what is this? I know this person. And I picked up the book and I loved it. And I was like, Laura, do you want to come on the podcast? And you were like, it's not a romance. I'm like, I know.

If you are a romance lover, as I am, it's like hitting some of the beats even if those are not the only beats that it's hitting.

i found it satisfying romantically. It isn't a romance novel, but again, like I really enjoyed it and I think fairy tales are really the bread and butter of romance novels.

So anyways we're gonna talk more about your book later.

When I was like, come on my podcast and we won't talk about your book, we're gonna talk about another book. I was like, what are you into? And I don't know how we arrived at The Land of the Beautiful Dead. Do you remember?

Laura J. Mayo: We were talking about dark romance versus, Horrormance.

Andrea Martucci: Yes.

Laura J. Mayo: Which is a really difficult word for me to say. Horror romance. Horror romance, or horromance and I was asking you because you are my authority on all things romance, and I was like, what's the difference.

I really do enjoy, especially that time of year, horror novels. And I was confused about horror romance because if horror novels are the antithesis of romance because of the happily ever afters, and how does that work in horror when you know you're gonna get the happily ever after? And you were like, try this book, and try The Land of the Beautiful Dead. I'm not the expert obviously, I thought it was a really interesting representation of the horror romance genre.

Andrea Martucci: I thought I read this book in 2014 but that's impossible because apparently it came out in October 2015. But I must have read it around the time it came out and this book stays in my memory. I think about it often, but I hadn't re read it.

I literally had it on the list of books to cover. You got back to me and were like, I [00:06:00] read it! And I was like, oh, I guess we're doing this!

Okay, let's get into this book. Laura, would you like to give a high level recap of what is this book about?

Laura J. Mayo: Land of the Beautiful Dead. It takes place multiple years after the apocalypse when the devil, and I'm saying that in kind of air quotes, the devil has ascended, has risen, and has unleashed death upon the world, and basically the apocalypse. So there's zombies, there are what she calls revenants, there's just dead people everywhere, and Lan, our main character, wants to stop this so she goes to plead to Azrael, the devil, about halting the apocalypse essentially and then it goes from there and then what will she do and what will he do to end this apocalypse?

Andrea Martucci: Yes yeah and it is so we're talking about horror romance. There's a lot of gore. One of his favorite things is like staking people, impaling. Eaters are essentially the zombies, and so they can be literally falling apart and still trying to eat you.

And so anybody who dies becomes an eater, so it's a place where there's a lot of death and yet there is no final death.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, he's basically halted death as we know it.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, it's

Laura J. Mayo: now different.

Andrea Martucci: And so we find out through the course of the book that part of what instigates her journey is that her mother, who I would say she has a complicated relationship with, her mother is not like warm and loving.

It's a very harsh world that they both basically grew up in, has died and became an eater and this was like the final straw where she didn't really have much in to live for in the place she was in, Norwood. And then also just hey, this is horrible. I want to mourn my mother and I can't.

That, this is just, this can't stand.

I don't know if she goes there knowing that Azrael keeps human mistresses, but he basically is like, all right What are you gonna give me if I give you an audience and she's like, uh, what do you want? He's like, I'll take your body and basically she becomes she calls it his dolly.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, I loved that term That was so interesting of her to call it that in this world. I thought that was really creative because I was like knew immediately what she meant. Yeah, it's really neat. So

Andrea Martucci: a play thing. Yeah. Yeah that gets dressed up and can be put on the shelf when you're not playing with them

Laura J. Mayo: And exists to be that and to look nice

Andrea Martucci: Okay. So first let's talk about the portrayal of the apocalypse. So I know when you were giving the introduction you gave the world as we are presented initially from Lan's perspective, or Lan? Lan? Lan?

Laura J. Mayo: I was saying Lan, but We can go with Lan.

Andrea Martucci: It's L A N. Yeah,

Laura J. Mayo: because I thought, because her full name is Lanachie, right?

Andrea Martucci: Yes.

Laura J. Mayo: Which I think was meant to be like a place in America, originally.

Andrea Martucci: Yes, I got the impression that her mother was indigenous in America, and then basically we learn later that at the beginning of the [00:09:00] apocalypse they sent all the children from America over to England, thinking it would be safe.

It was not.

Laura J. Mayo: It was not.

Andrea Martucci: Spoiler alert. And in fact, England is Azreal's home base.

Yeah, and he's basically camped out in one of the palaces, like Buckingham Palace or something.

Laura J. Mayo: When I figured that out, I was like, oh wait, holy shit. It was such a neat reveal to figure out Haven was London.

Yeah. And it took me a minute, and then all of a sudden I was like, oh wait, that's cool I thought that was really interesting how they did that, and just picturing a London that is clear of everybody except his revenants and family.

Andrea Martucci: City of dead people who are beautiful dead. Yeah because he tends to reanimate very beautiful people so he's got like an army of beautiful people around him.

But it's I think it's like a real Loyalty to the single person perspective, because everything is in Lan's perspective. Lan has grown up understanding the world in a particular way, and she doesn't know what London is. All she knows is what Haven is, and us as the reader, there's like this nice what is this, like, is it dramatic irony?

What irony is this when the audience knows something, and the character doesn't?

Laura J. Mayo: Oh, I have no idea.

Andrea Martucci: Somebody's yelling at their phone right now, some sense of irony, right? Where we're like, oh, she's describing London but she doesn't know that.

Lan understands the apocalypse one way.

What do we learn about Azreal and what do we learn about what the humans have done as well?

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, we, come to find out the scope of what had happened towards the end of the book, but basically, they figured out who he was and have labeled him the devil and he was just trying to live in peace with his what he was calling his children and they were like we must stop this and I feel like it was reactionary to the humans losing their shit and trying to put a stop to him with nuclear weapons which just compounded the apocalypse scenario and so you've got you've got nuclear catastrophe and now zombies and the decimation of what it seemed like everywhere yeah the whole world so

Andrea Martucci: yeah cuz she always thought like the sky was yellow because he made it yellow but it was because humans nuked their own lands which is a bad idea

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah the biggest spite in your face like yeah cutting off your nose to spite your face of all time.

Was like, we're gonna nuke the guy and it didn't work anyway. But they ended up really screwing themselves in this one.

Andrea Martucci: Well, speaking of cutting off your nose, to spite your face, Azreal doesn't have a nose. . Right. . It's gone. Okay, so to get into the horror elements, so how would you describe Azreal?

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah. I don't know originally what I was picturing he would look like because it's like we're told you know he's the devil and so you have this kind of image in your head and you meet him and he's just a man with a mask and I think some things are slightly off about him like she says like there's something wrong and she knows it, but putting her finger on it is a little bit more challenging.

So he constantly is wearing these masks, no one has really ever seen him not wear these masks so he's got the wolf mask and the [00:12:00] gold mask, and I couldn't quite get a handle on what his outfit was, cause she kept saying loincloth, and I was very confused as to what that looked like cause it was like, all I know from loincloth is like, Tarzan, but I don't think that's what's happening here so I don't know if it was more like, biblical pharaoh esque.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, maybe more like Caesar.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, like he did have arm cuffs, I think, and like he'd taken those off. But yeah, and and then she sees him, without his mask, day one, really, like the first day she's like, yep, I'll do it. And then she's like, no mask. He's just a man.

And yeah, with out a nose, big scar on half his face. So he's, looks like something's wrong. And she can see he doesn't necessarily look dead, but like no human would be surviving what he looks like kind of thing. Again, we come to find out that was all a result of human interaction and human fault basically.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, and he's basically this like ageless being, like he's been around for what sounds like thousands of years, as long as humans have existed way, right? And he was born of a woman and then I guess came out clearly, according to whoever saw him, an abomination some way.

And he and his mother were thrown from a cliff, but he survived because he cannot die.

Laura J. Mayo: Oh, first they bashed his head in too.

Andrea Martucci: Oh yeah, yes.

Laura J. Mayo: He's an infant and he remembers all of it. So that's, that's your start to life. I can't imagine things are going to go really great from there.

Yeah, so they try to kill him with a stone. He remembers this stone coming at him. Does he remember like the pain associated with it? I think he does.

Andrea Martucci: I think so. Yeah. I think he feels everything.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, and then they throw him and his mom from the cliff. And I thought this part was so fascinating and so interesting where he didn't know what he was doing as an infant, obviously, and raised his mother from the dead to care for him.

Yeah. Which I was like, wow, that's that was really neat.

Andrea Martucci: That sounds like a metaphor.

Laura J. Mayo: And how he remembers her nursing him with like rotten milk because she was dead. And just, yeah, that was like, oh shit.

Like,

Andrea Martucci: Yeah and I think he's been persecuted from the beginning. Chained up in a cave for thousands of years, where again, he can't die.

But he feels hunger, his flesh does become injured, and it will heal after some period of time, but very slowly, but then it seems like he's constantly being attacked, right? And I think the consistent thing is as, you were talking about with his mother, is that he has not known love, and affection, and people are generally horrified by him, or trying to hurt him in some way he's been tortured. Every experience with humans is horrific.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, and we find out his favorite method of torture impaling happened to him, too. Yes. He got the idea from humans. It didn't seem like he came up with this on his own. That was also from an interaction with people.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, so I was trying to see, like, how the author described this, and I think R. Lee Smith has described it as like horror erotica.

I will say I think it is a romance. I think it is [00:15:00] a weird romance, and I think also it's not erotic in my opinion.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, no, I wasn't getting erotic from it, and I don't mean that any which way just because even like the sex - It was graphic, but it wasn't like

Andrea Martucci: It was like weirdly graphic and not graphic.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, it wasn't anything what I would expect from sex with the devil, if that makes sense. I didn't think it was a bad thing, it was just, yeah, I wouldn't classify this as erotica in any way.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, I think if you're a reader who's used to like monster fucking books, this is not scratching the same itch as monster fucking books.

No. Yeah, he does have a weird penis, but it's, that's, it's not a weird fun penis, it's a weird horrible penis.

Laura J. Mayo: Cause, cause he's dead.

Andrea Martucci: Cause he's dead she literally never, even up to almost the very end, she wants to be close to him, but he feels terrible.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, she's always saying how his body is really off, and really awkward, and she doesn't like it, and she's yeah, this is horrible, but, she sees the person beyond it and overcomes that. Yeah, it's not like she's attracted to a monster the way you would in like monster fucking books.

Andrea Martucci: Another thing to say about this book is it's really long.

Laura J. Mayo: It is very long. I didn't realize how long it was until I was like, wow, this keeps going.

Andrea Martucci: Like on Kindle, it says it's 791 pages or something like that, so a typical, I don't know, 100, 000 word novel would be like 300, 320 pages, so just double that.

Yeah. Like a feeling I had about the book is that you start getting into it and you do feel movement even from the beginning. She starts a relationship with him and she's not horrified by him in the way other people are, like he has other dollies, and they're like I appreciate that I can leave post apocalyptic squalor, and I can come here, and I can like, be fed, and clean, and I don't have to ask if the water is clean there's obviously luxuries that you get by being but they're all just tolerating.

They're willing, but they're not enjoying anything about it.

Laura J. Mayo: know exactly what they're trading for, like, where they're just like, I'll do this awful, horrible thing so I can have a bath and electricity and not have to do anything else for that other than, do this one person instead of the town.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, so that's a thing, is like, sex work as a part of barter is a very normalized part of life. Lan on her way to from her little town to London, or Haven as they call it, would give sexual favors as hey, can I have some water or some food, or will you take me to the next town in your ferry, which is basically like a van.

Because to get from one place to another, you have to go through zombie infested land, so it's literally like you need safeguard, and it's a very dangerous job, right?

Laura J. Mayo: And even from the beginning, you see just how dangerous it is she gets she has to leave one of the ferries through the roof, and they put down a ladder, and she has to climb up.

And then she gets to the top, and doesn't he proposition her at the top, too? Yes. And she's nah, not you. And keeps going, because she doesn't need to. But yes, they are, like, from the get go. But actually, I did like how they presented [00:18:00] sex work. That it was just part of life. They weren't making any sort of moral statement.

Because at some point in the apocalypse, you have to throw out morality in certain aspects, like the dead are walking around and trying to eat you. There's just no time for that. And so I did like how it was portrayed here because she was so practical about it.

Yeah, this is I have to get from point A to point B, and it wasn't like she's I'll do whatever it takes. She's this is just normal. This is how I have to do this. And if this is valuable to some people, great And I'll do it. I appreciated how it was portrayed.

But even like the concubines that Azreal had weren't like looked down upon by anybody for doing what they did. It was like, we get it. We understand why they did it. yeah

Andrea Martucci: except okay there is tension between the dead in Haven and the warm bloods which is like basically like a slur almost where there are a few living people here. There is just like outgroup bias right like you're not one of us yeah and so anyways the feeling is mutual pretty much right

Laura J. Mayo: well because one of them calls her like she wakes up in the morning and he's like, you have to come to breakfast.

And she's I have to go to the bathroom. And he's disgusted. For just having like normal human functions, which he obviously doesn't have anymore.

Andrea Martucci: Right so they look down on the human consorts but not because they're sex workers just because they're like alive.

Laura J. Mayo: They have to pee sometimes.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, exactly

Lan from the beginning I think is like sick at first or just I don't know, she's going through a lot, but from early on, there starts to be this movement where she's finding pleasure in what they do, and they basically just seem to have a lot of angry, violent sex, like that seems to be the norm for them and she is constantly being defiant with him, and saying end the eaters, and he's like, look, I will give you some concession if you just shut up, you know?

But so they're constantly bartering, and he clearly likes her from the beginning more than he likes the others, but he's still sleeping with these other women. And so I feel like with how long the book is, there's like this very steady, long, And it feels very slow, but it always feels like you're making progress in their relationship.

But then I felt like I was like at 50%. I was like, okay, I think this is this is where they're getting to, and then I didn't even realize how much farther their relationship was gonna go.

Laura J. Mayo: Oh, yeah.

Andrea Martucci: Did you feel like that at all? Like, how did you feel their relationship was progressing?

Laura J. Mayo: It was Certainly felt like it was in parts. So you had the first part where she gets there and she meets the children, which like, I could talk about the children all day, love the children.

Andrea Martucci: They're adults, but yeah, his children.

Laura J. Mayo: They're grown people and they're separate from the revenants and eaters, they're different.

And then after them, there's like the whole section where she realizes she likes where she's at a little bit. Because then once she propositions him you could kill me right now, and then everyone would be happy, and he's like, that would not make me happy, and throws a fit.

Andrea Martucci: Kill her and raise her up again as his his companion. Right.

Laura J. Mayo: And she's like, you could do that now, because I'm young and I'm pretty, and he takes that very personal does not want to do it, and then she wants to even just come [00:21:00] back into his favor so she's not thrown out which I also thought was interesting because he doesn't kick her out he's just you can just go be tutored elsewhere and I won't have to deal with you

Andrea Martucci: There's this part where she bargains for people in different towns to be fed the remains of his feasts.

So like once a month they get like a delivery of like more food than they've ever seen in their life. Yeah. And so he's like it's a bad idea but I'll do it for you and she's like oh thank you Azreal. And then that creates a situation where first there's a woman who basically is sent as a spy to check out the situation and she comes in the guise of another sex worker dolly.

It's clear something's off about her. And then there's a rebellion in Mallowtown, which is one of the towns that got the food, and he's literally like, they wouldn't have time or energy to rise against me if they weren't well fed.

Laura J. Mayo: Do you think he did it because it would prove to her, instead of just being nice?

Because he knows, like this whole time, he is fully aware of what is going to happen, he's not surprised by any of it, by anything that humans do. And I think he says that a couple places, he's none of this is shocking to me in any way. Cause it felt also like he wasn't doing it necessarily for her, but he was doing it to show her.

You have this ideal version of what's gonna happen. I'm gonna end the eaters and everything's gonna be great. And we're all gonna be singing together and we'll, the dead and the living will live together just fine. And he's like, I know this isn't gonna happen. And so it almost felt like he was doing yeah, I'll send them food. Watch what happens.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, because he has so much control over the situation, right? Where he can let there be a teachable moment with like very little real consequences for him. Yeah. Do I think he did it on purpose? I think that he did know what was going to happen, but has like weird kernels of hope that he doesn't acknowledge to himself.

Where I think he does deep down wish it could be different. He will never admit that to himself. I'm sure the entire time he was doing it, he was saying to himself, I'm just going to show her, but maybe a little bit hoping it could be different.

Laura J. Mayo: Wouldn't it be great if she was right, kind of thing?

Yeah. Yeah. Then when, the Mallowtown boys get there, Because there isn't even that much of an uprising. He shuts it down so fast. There's, yeah, it doesn't even really reach their gates except for those three people and boy are they punished for it. And which I also found was like an interesting turning point too of their relationship.

It sounds awkward to call it my favorite part.

Andrea Martucci: No, go for it

Laura J. Mayo: So basically what happens is there's this rebellion that's coming and Mallowtown is prepping for it, and he knows they are, and he knows they're doing this, and he understands why they're doing it, because he fed them, and now they've got this need that kept them from fighting back is now met, so now they can fight back, and they get it in their head that they're gonna do this, and these three boys decide they want to be a part of it, are basically told no, come any way ahead of the group.

Andrea Martucci: Which gives them the warning

Laura J. Mayo: Right, so they really understand what's going on, but like, okay, so Mallowtown's actually going to do this.

And so he catches these three boys, and he [00:24:00] impales them as he does.

And she ends up walking out into this, what he calls his meditation garden, which is where people are on stakes and thinking about what they've done. I don't know and like, I'm sorry.

Andrea Martucci: Look guys. Okay. I just want to say, this is a romance novel podcast. This is horror and I don't think it is helpful to think about any of this, literally.

I don't think you're supposed to think about this like serial killer romance.

Laura J. Mayo: Right.

Andrea Martucci: We're not supposed to be getting off on Azreal's power. No. And like it's not sexy. It's horrific.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, it's not like you're supposed to be like, wow, awesome, he did these things. No, you're supposed to be horrified.

And the author does a good job of being like, this is horrifying, and Lan is clearly traumatized from that garden, and what happens in that garden where she's out there, and the boys are not dead. One of them is, two of the boys are not dead yet, and so they're on these stakes, and it is gruesome, and it is, yeah, it is horror, this is horror.

Andrea Martucci: And the one who is dead is now a zombie.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, so he's undead. Yeah. And so she begs this guard Just stop this we can stop this, cause she still has hope we can fix this, if we just stop doing it, guys, we can, it'll all be fine, and the guard has no sympathy for her, and to shut her up, kills the guy.

Andrea Martucci: Pulling him down on the stake just to kill him.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, not a nice death either, again. Straight up horror. Yeah, and you're not supposed to feel good about this. You're supposed to feel bad about this.

Andrea Martucci: She's like splattered with gore.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, he throws up onto her head. Yeah, like the guts and and the author describes the cracking and it's gruesome and Azreal comes out and sees that she's done this and is very upset with her and is like fine, you want to end this? Do it. Do it yourself. End it. Feel free. '

Because he also noticed that the guard did it and she again speaks up for the guard and is like no No, he didn't do it. I did and he's like cool do another one and again, horrible and horrifying, and it was an interesting part in their relationship too because he goes off on this tirade, about who do you think you are?

And you still, you're looking at this with idealism still. Like you're looking past this death and destruction and impalement and still being like, we can fix it guys! And he's like, no we can't, we've gone too far. And so he, tells her, do it, kill the third guy, you want him dead, do it.

She goes to do it and he tries to backtrack at that point. It's wait. Like I said, all this and anger, please don't. And she does it anyway. And that in their relationship, it was a huge moment for her, but not in the romance. I think for him, it was much more of a bigger moment because I feel like that's a little bit more of when he's seeing her side.

That like what he made her do and his anger is still not there for her. She's seen all this stuff and the anger is still not there for her the way it is for him.

And even though she learns he had been impaled and he had all this stuff done. She's still idealistic.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, I think part of his anger is he's like if I wanted these guys [00:27:00] zombies by now I would have done that.

How dare you think that you have the power and control of the situation. He's literally he's like I can control the dead like I have so much power. Who do you think you are? You never have the proper deference for me and it's all about what you want you you you you you like you want me to end the eaters Lan.

And this brings me to my hot take. I think it's a metaphor: that love isn't about control. People have to be free to love you in order to really love you. And Azreal, he always has masks. He's always presenting to the world this I'm tough, I'm demonic, you can't ever do anything to me. And yet he is covered in the scars of what people have done to him and the open wounds, and that he can't ever let it go.

Laura J. Mayo: And they're slow to heal. It's not like he can just quickly be like, I'm fine. He can heal himself over a long time, but they take, yeah, metaphor, they take ages to heal.

Andrea Martucci: And so he's trying to build these walls. He's trying to build these defenses, the zombies, to keep people away from him so that they can't hurt him again because time and again people disappoint him.

He doesn't know what it's like to actually be loved for himself as opposed to for his power and what he can give to another person.

Laura J. Mayo: Or just the revenants that are risen to do that. Yes, their function.

Andrea Martucci: And so this was the failure of his children where he created certain people to be his companions but the act of rising somebody from the dead to be undead he has to form them so he has control over what they come back with and oftentimes he wipes their previous memories and he basically created these children to be his companions to love him and to serve his needs.

And after 30 days, they hate him. For some reason he tried to control how they would love him and it backfires and they resent the fact that he makes them exist.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, I thought that was super interesting because they're separate. It's like he can raise the revenants and they're, it's almost implied they're like little tiny pieces of him. Yeah. And so they're they love him, and, but they've got one track. If they were raised to do this thing, they do this thing.

Wickham is a tutor. That's what he's gonna do. Serafina's a handmaiden. That's what she's gonna do, without fail. And so he raises these three children to be like maybe they'll independently love me. They do not. And yeah, after 30 days, they're like, this is bullshit, and hate him.

Which is also so depressing for Azreal. They're the three people. Who are three people in the world that are capable of loving him, hate him, and resent him. Which also makes the ending that much more powerful. But so yeah, the children, fascinating. And when he finally decides like he can let them go.

Andrea Martucci: They've been begging. They're like, please kill me.

Laura J. Mayo: So the one who kills her, and you'd think like the others would be like a little [00:30:00] horrified and Solvig, is that how you say his name? Solvig. Yeah. So he's basically thrilled at the prospect. He's like, wait, that's an option now? Like me next, do me next.

Andrea Martucci: Kill me!

Laura J. Mayo: Please, my turn. And so he, Azreal does. And then the third one, which he's most upset about because she been defiant, but not in the way that the other two have. The other two are assholes. And have tried to kill him on multiple occasions and tried to kill Lan.

Andrea Martucci: And that's straw that breaks the camel's back, that he kills the first one is she attempted to poison Lan. He was like, you are too much. You are hurting other people, you're not just hurting me now.

Laura J. Mayo: And then she does this whole sexual display at dinner.

And he's basically like, any shred of hope that I had, that you might turn this around and like me again, was gone in that moment. So what's the point?

Andrea Martucci: Yeah.

Laura J. Mayo: And just, fine, you want to die?

Good. And then Taya, the last one, has just been dead silent. (we laugh) Sorry, that was

Andrea Martucci: literally

Laura J. Mayo: so but has just you know refuses to speak. Wears a mask as well but it looks like a doll. So her method of asking him to kill her is to like raise her hands and try and demonstrate like she wants to die and she still just will not speak. But yeah, so I found that really fascinating. Having those children the three people that were supposed to love him, don't. And what that does to a person.

Andrea Martucci: I forget exactly, like what parameters he put on their, existence, but I think that the reason they start to hate him is because he's controlling them. He has controlled what they remember. He created them solely to serve his needs and they know that and they can't leave. They can't go have their own life.

Laura J. Mayo: They're almost dollies in a different way.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah.

Laura J. Mayo: I raised you to do this function and your function is to pretend to be my kids. Pretend to be my children and love me. And they're like, yeah, no, we're not gonna do that. Because the other revenants are different.

They're set apart.

Andrea Martucci: They're loyal, but they ask nothing and expect nothing from him. They just live to serve. And I think that it's like he is a narcissistic parent who has children, creates children, solely for his own edification.

And he's like, no, but I loved when Taya created art, and it's like: for you. Like it was all just for you, it wasn't creating children so that you could teach them things and then they could go on and live their own lives.

And so I think that is the metaphor, that every attempt he has made in his life to be loved has either been rebuffed, he has never been able to have humans love him. They've always been disgusted by him whether he's done anything or not. And then he's like, okay maybe I can make undead companions and that backfires on him. But it's all about control.

And it's all about not allowing people to see the real him, or not allowing anybody to dislike him and not be punished immediately for that.

His wounds I think are kind of like the key to this, right? At one point she's like, oh this wound is nearly healed and he [00:33:00] goes nearly closed, you mean.

She said, what's the difference? He says, there will always be a scar. It'll heal too in time. And then he goes, outwardly perhaps, I will always feel it. And then she says, but it won't always hurt.

And so I feel like his wounds and his scars, yes, they are physical, but they're much more about he could emotionally heal.

I mean, yes, he is still getting hurt on the daily, but some of them are self imposed. There are several points in the book where he's literally tearing his own flesh out or injuring himself with his claws. So it feels to me at a certain point who is actually actively stabbing him at this point?

Laura J. Mayo: And speaking of stabbing, at the dinner with Lan, she's just got a knife, she has a knife because she doesn't know what to do with it. It's silverware, she's looking at all these forks, being like, what's the point of this? And he comes over and he is like, see, you could stab me and stabs himself.

Yeah. And she's like, I didn't, why would you do that? I didn't want you to do that. Yeah. And yeah, inflicts his own wound to prove to her

I can't be hurt. See? Yeah. And like, gives himself a new wound, a new scar to prove to her that he can't be hurt. And also the sheer quantity of people that he has around him.

Yeah. Going back to that is like also really interesting in terms of the narcissism.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah,

Laura J. Mayo: He's got rooms full and it's all a play It's all like a stage play. They don't need to be there. They exist to show up and pretend to eat dinner in the hall And that's it. That's what they do. And wasn't it referenced also that they are the leaders?

Oh The rebellion like oh,

Andrea Martucci: I don't remember that part now

Laura J. Mayo: because he basically was like your dead now come sit at my table

Andrea Martucci: Yeah,

Laura J. Mayo: Which again just goes to show how powerful he is. And what a turn that was. He killed them, brought them back just to sit at his table and pretend to worship him.

Which I thought was also really interesting.

Andrea Martucci: I can't make you love and respect me, but I can kill you, bring you back to life,

Laura J. Mayo: respect me.

Andrea Martucci: And then, yeah, exactly. You don't actually.

Laura J. Mayo: Then you will exist to do that. Yeah. And nothing else. You will exist to show up and eat dinner that you don't need to eat and just watch me, and watch me do it in this giant palace.

There's no reason for any of it, but he'll do it. He could survive with one person making his dinner if he wanted to, instead he's got a palace and a city of these people, which is interesting because it's like, the kid that took all his toys and went to go play by himself, he's like, I'm gonna go play, these are all mine, and takes over London and does it, so yeah, he's a wounded guy. He's a sad, sad man.

Andrea Martucci: So then towards the end. This is maybe the real Black moment in this very dark romance. This is the point at which she truly does love him and I think he knows it and he's maybe starting to feel a little bit of hope. And she goes, "Azreal I love you. I want to be with you. I want that more than anything. He stiffened all over, all at once. Slowly he began to smile, and in that moment she saw for the first time through the scars, and not just around them, to the face of the man he might have been, that he might someday be again, if only he were allowed to heal."

" I want that more than anything, but not more than everything."

And he agrees to end the eaters, but sends her away. Which honestly confused me. Because [00:36:00] okay, so actually I think we learn later, it's because he's like, I'll end the eaters, I'll give you what you want, but then I'm gonna have to fucking kill everybody, so you're not gonna like that, and I can't stand to watch you be here and see me do that.

Laura J. Mayo: And he's still, when he was talking about that too he then made it separate from their relationship. He started comparing it back to, at the beginning, back to a game. And he's like, no, you won. You don't stay on the field. You take your trophy and you go home. So go do that. And he stopped talking about it as us and our relationship, he's basically like, oh no, this was a game of the whole time, and you won, so good, run away, and take everything and run.

And, which I thought was a really interesting way to put it,

Andrea Martucci: it's still about winning, it's all about the barter, you got the better end of the deal, as opposed to, yeah, their relationship.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah. Yeah. So he brought it all back to their very beginning bargain of I did what you wanted, now go away.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah,

Laura J. Mayo: like you had your audience leave.

Andrea Martucci: And I think it's not allowing her the ability to love him and also want something that he doesn't want. It's like he cannot hold those two ideas in his head at once.

He's like, you either are fully loyal to me and give up this foolish idea that is gonna hurt me and hurt yourself, Or, fine, I'll give you what you want, you're gonna be wrong, but then that proves you don't actually love me. This was just a transaction. This was a barter.

And I think honestly hitting that part though, "the face of the man he might have been, that he might someday be again, if only he were allowed to heal," where I was like, and you said this in your notes he's not the devil.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah.

Andrea Martucci: He's a man that like, weirdly is able to go on existing no matter how much he's hurt. And it's like in that moment where I was like, Oh my God he is just a man.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah.

Andrea Martucci: And yeah, he can live without a nose and with his bone exposed in his cheek. And he does feel off, but if he stopped hurting himself, if other people stopped hurting him, he could heal and he could not look so unnatural.

And underneath it, he is just a man who wants to be loved.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, and I think he somewhat understands that about himself, because he'll call himself the devil. But then, when he's originally trying to barter with Lan for her staying there, he's like, well, I'm a man with man's urges, and so he does recognize that he's not as set apart as maybe he wishes he was.

That he's got the same urges as any other guy, and he's gonna act upon those urges. And yeah, I think deep down, also, he understands. And like, who knows, maybe life would have been very different if they didn't try and bash his head in as an infant. Right!

Andrea Martucci: If he had been loved, he would have learned to use his skills in raising the dead in more productive ways?

Which, okay, get to the ending, but that is my hot take, is that thinking about this book, it's horror romance. It is gruesome, It feels at odds to the question that we were originally talking about can you have horror romance?

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah,

Andrea Martucci: I think that this book leaves you with a very different feeling from, I think, the feeling that one usually looks for in romance, where it's about ooh like, I think he likes her.

Like, there is, very little [00:39:00] in this book where you're like, ooh, I think, yeah, I think Azreal likes her, and like, and even her love for him is distasteful and there's so much about I mean their sexual life their relationship. It's so combative and so much about the existence in the palace where she's just like yeah, I'm glad that I have food and that I'm clean, but I also feel so guilty

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah.

Andrea Martucci: I am bathing in enough clean water if I didn't just soil this water by bathing in it, if I had this water I'd be the richest person in the town I came from because it's so valuable.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah.

Andrea Martucci: She feels that immense guilty where she's like, I just want to be with you. Yeah. Yeah, why do you need all this pomp and circumstance and adulation. None of these people actually really love you.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, her idea of comfort has been very much shaped by the apocalypse and the situation because it's not like she's trying to separate herself from all the comfort.

She's partaking But at the same time that was her entire goal is maybe we can all live in comfort if you just did this thing and like we can all take advantage of this and her view of it I thought was really interesting and well done because it wasn't like she was Trying to be like, I won't do that and I won't eat your food.

She's yeah, I like the food like, you know I'll take a bath.

Andrea Martucci: Although she is like, here's something I found really unlikable about Lan is oh my god Lan, you are enjoying the food. She acknowledges she likes her lemon cake and coffee but she's always fighting being in the bath and being like dolled up and she's learning, it takes her forever to appreciate anything about learning.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah.

Andrea Martucci: And I will just say as a character, she is frustrating. Because I think her defining characteristic is defiance.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah. She doesn't do anything easily.

Laura J. Mayo: I did like that about her in this context though, because I don't know. She just went along with everything. She probably wouldn't have survived as long as she did. And what we know of her mother as well and the way her mother shapes her.

Cause she goes back to the story of how she even knows about dollies.

And she's like, yeah, I saw this beautiful woman. Who got to bathe and is wearing nice clothes Why does she get all this stuff? She talks to her mom, she's like, what is she selling? Because she admits, I knew she was selling something.

And her mom is basically like, well, I'm not going to tell you to not do that because that's not where we live.

No one just gets that where we live. In Norwood, no one's just, just coming across that fortune. And the mom was like, yeah, she's selling stuff. Even her mom, I think, separated the dollies from sex.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, I think she goes, you can sell it in parts, but never sell everything. Yeah. Because then you won't have anything left. Yeah, so it's yeah, you can give a handjob behind the smokehouse. Or like a blowjob to the ferryman. Yeah. Or whatever.

Laura J. Mayo: And we'll all just be a okay.

But yeah, the second you step over this line.

Andrea Martucci: And I wonder if that's a metaphor for love. It is like, yeah you can sell your body, but don't sell your heart. Don't ever hope that you're building a real relationship with somebody then this isn't just a transaction.

You can't trust anybody, nobody gives you anything for free, everything is a barter.

Laura J. Mayo: And I think that's where the defiance comes from, is like, with her own mom being that way, and she wouldn't have made it very far if she was just like, wow, thanks, to [00:42:00] everything, and not questioning everything, and I think that was the land she lived in, is you do have to question everyone's motives, you do have to question everything.

So then when she shows up and he's like, okay, we're gonna do this. , why would I need to learn how to use forks? And for that reason, she's like, these people are fake. Who the hell cares if I'm eating por with a, with a piece of bread? And he's like, well, I just want you to like, yeah.

Okay. Why? And I just found that interesting too of like when you have to live with the barest of bones. That when things seem frivolous or you're being told to do something that maybe is out of the ordinary, she wants to know why. Because yeah, with the musicians, he's like art for art's sake.

And that's just not the world she lives in.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah. She doesn't appreciate beauty in the way he does. One of his dollies loves music and is a beautiful flute player. And he's like, the music she creates just has a life to it that my undead musicians can never create.

Laura J. Mayo: And he notices when she's had a bad day cause it'll reflect back. Yeah.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah. He appreciates beauty in a way that Lan doesn't and so she is always chafing. She's like why do I have to wear this dress? It's uncomfortable. It feels like they're always dressed up in like ball gowns

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah,

Andrea Martucci: and jewels and like layers of makeup and two hour bathing rituals and grooming blah blah blah. She never enjoys that.

There is not a piece of clothing that Lan wears that she enjoys that's like sumptuous

Laura J. Mayo: which actually and I did appreciate for this because that would have felt i think a little bit disingenuous if she was like I guess i do want to stay here for the dresses like

Andrea Martucci: oh totally like totally

Laura J. Mayo: she's like I changed my mind I actually really do like my hair being done she's still that person from norwood who's like this seems pointless

Andrea Martucci: i think I kept expecting there to be a point where she found a color that she liked and she works with the tailors to create clothing that Is practical for her, and Azreal really does like seeing her dressed up. He's not like, you're beautiful no matter what.

I think he is still stuck on this artifice of appearances. Of having the manners, because when he first encountered humans, he was so ashamed at not having the manners. And so he thinks it is a gift to give to others, education and manners and beautiful clothing that requires a sense of comportment to wear, and yeah, she never sees the purpose in it.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, she doesn't see the point.

But she does mention, and she has a breakdown over it after the meditation garden part where she's drinking coffee, and she does mention like her mom would have been upset with her for even wallowing this.

Yeah. If her mother was here, her mother would be like, suck it up, this is the world you live in. So it's like when you've got that mom in your ear saying those things about it, but then so she's drinking coffee, and she's like, what kind of person am I? Where I just slaughtered a guy, and now I'm like, I wish I had sugar for my coffee?

Andrea Martucci: Yeah.

Laura J. Mayo: And so I think she keeps relating it back to every time she starts getting a little comfortable in this world, something happens to show her like, no, this is surface level. You don't live in this world. This is not where you're from. And so I did like that about her.

Yeah, sometimes I think we were meant to feel just as exhausted [00:45:00] as Azreal was with her being like constantly, because he even calls her out on it. You're gonna grace me and bless me with you being a dolly and then I'll have to just accept what you give me. He's like, why are you doing this?

And she does say sorry, like she does apologize, which I thought was really interesting.

Andrea Martucci: I think clearly the thing he enjoys about her is that she is essentially the one person who actually enjoys being around him and yet is also extremely defiant and she never does what he wants her to do, right?

So I think that's essentially what makes her not like other girls, you know in this world and what builds their relationship, but she has feelings for him, but then her handmaiden actually brings something up where she's like it's all about you like if you have any appreciation for this man what does he want?

Are you willing to do literally anything that he wants? And not at the cost of you being massively unhappy, but have you ever even considered that? And the answer is no. Lan has never considered that. And she's kind of like, Oh, I feel a little better. Um,

But before we talk about the end, because we have to talk about the end.

Because I think it also really brings home the ultimate larger metaphor of romantic redemption. I don't even really want to say romantic redemption because in real life, guys, you can't actually come back from slaughtering millions, perhaps billions of people.

I'm just gonna put it out there, okay? That's called genocide.

But something that you brought up was about the characterization of Azreal and what is a villain and becoming the thing that people believe you to be and treat you as if you are.

Your book is a fairytale retelling from the perspective of the ugly stepsister. This is obviously something you're interested in, thematically. Yeah. Say more about that with Azreal.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, it was interesting, because he has memories from his whole life.

He remembers everything, and his very first memory is people hating him. Even after everything, he just wants to go away and live in a mountain cave with his children. And even up until then, he's trying not to be this villain.

Again, this is after he's been like, staked himself. This is after they've tried to murder him multiple times. This is after everything. He's like, I'm gonna find a cave. I'm gonna go live in that cave and surround myself with, even if I've created them, my own little group, and we'll just be happy in our cave together.

And the humans were still like, no. Unacceptable. We're gonna make sure you die. And then that was really the tipping point when he's like, fine, if this is who you want me to be, Fine, because up until that point, he didn't have eaters, he didn't have any of that, it was just him and his little group.

Andrea Martucci: He knew he had the ability, but he wasn't using it as a weapon.

Laura J. Mayo: There were no eaters, he could have done it at any point throughout history and never did. And even when he talks about the little girl who was next to him staked, and how these humans were doing this horrible thing to this child, and Lan was like, why didn't you bring her back?

And he's like, for what? What would I do with that? And so even then it's like he had this power to do it then and he didn't and then so he goes away to this cave and then it was when they decided they were gonna launch nuclear weapons. He's like, okay We're done now yeah, you [00:48:00] want me to be the devil cool. Let's do it. And so you don't get to die anymore and you're gonna be eaten by your loved ones when they come back and I'm gonna bring back everyone you like as my revenants, and they're gonna serve me, and really became the devil during that ascension. And that's what they were called, the devil ascended.

It's like, well, why? He would have just gone away, and he wouldn't have been a problem had they just not tried to kill him over and over again. And so I just thought that was an interesting thing, that he wasn't really a villain until then. And then he was.

And then he went,

Andrea Martucci: He really went for it.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah. He's like, you want me to be a villain? Cool, let's do this. And went as hard as he could at villainy.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah and I think that people in real life, because we're talking about a book here, people in real life are responsible for their actions, right?

Impact over intent just because somebody hurt you, it's not okay to continue to hurt people, particularly innocent people who weren't even the person who hurt you, right? But it does speak to there's this convenient memory loss when it comes to people being pushed to a certain point and then it's like they do something and it's all of the context in which they did that action and what they're responding to is erased and all that's focused on is the thing that they were doing.

I'm not saying violence is justified right but the way we are and the way we behave and the way we hurt people, we all of us hurt people in some way because of our own limitations, or because we have been hurt in a particular way, or we're just responding to the context of our own lives.

That is just life, right? And to try to erase our context and our history and how it shapes who we are is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And I think that's what this book is really delving into, is like you were saying he did not start out like this. They could have just left him alone.

And so are all humans evil? No, but certainly now the conditions exist where every human, almost without fail, would try to kill Azrael if they could, and believes him to be evil, and if they were well fed and there weren't zombies outside his gates, would 100 percent try again to kill him.

Some of that is because they don't have Azreal's full history. They don't know that actually human beings are the ones who nuked the world, and it's their fault, so I don't know. I think it like, speaks to something ugly and inconvenient about human nature.

Laura J. Mayo: Oh yeah, definitely, and the way it's outlined here is you were to ask at the beginning, like hey, this guy's gonna totally wipe out humanity, and he's gonna bring, zombies, and everyone you love is not gonna die, some will come back and wear nice outfits and worship the devil, and other people will just try and eat you, you'd be like, no, that's awful, and then you get to the end and you're like I get it okay, yeah, I see where you're coming from.

So I think that's, yeah, like a clever thing. Cause I'm by the end, you're like well, you [00:51:00] guys suck. Like you kind of deserved it. Cause by the end you're like rooting for what humanity thinks is the devil, like I said, I don't think he's the devil, but by the end, yeah, you're kind of like, well, I fully appreciate how you went off the deep end here.

That humans did this essentially to themselves even though they can't see it because it's been over so long that they'll never see it Because even Lan doesn't see it.

Andrea Martucci: Oh, yeah, she still believes like not necessarily that humans are good, but that they're not gonna immediately turn around and kill him But also now in the last 30 years or whatever since shit really hit the fan, now every human, including Lan herself, has grown up in a world in which why Wouldn't they react violently towards Azreal?

Because now they feel that they are the ones who are harmed or they have grown up in a world in which they don't even understand love and tolerance. I don't think anybody in the human world understands love.

And we actually get a reminder of this, there's there's a survivor of Mallowtown, a woman who comes with her young daughter, and, she's a complicated character, she's begging for help, and he's like, well what are you gonna give me?

And she, first she offers herself, sexually, and then he's like, I'm not interested, and then she nods to her like, 8 year old daughter, and the 8 year old daughter exposes her chest like, okay, I'm offering myself, And basically, Azrael is furious because the mother is pimping out the daughter, and furious that this child has no innocence.

And basically, he's like, get out of here, and gives her gold to leave the daughter just so that she doesn't have a chance to pimp the daughter out the wasteland. And the mother is sitting there justifying to herself like, I was a sex worker even younger than her, and what am I supposed to do?

This is better for her than there's all of these justifications, and she's not wrong?

Even Lan is takes off like a jeweled comb and drops it. She's disgusted, but she's like, yeah, this is the world.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah.

Andrea Martucci: I think Lan is disgusted that this is the world, and she's no fan of this woman, but she also grew up in this world, too. She knows why it's like this.

Laura J. Mayo: With a practical mom. Yeah. And that's what this woman, unfortunately, in this world is being, is practical. Yeah.

Lan's looking at her, and she turns to Lan and is like, what?

Andrea Martucci: Yeah don't judge me. You are the consort of this guy

Laura J. Mayo: you witnessed, I tried to sell myself, he said no, what do you want me to do here? And Lan doesn't have an answer. Yeah is disgusted with the mom and disgusted I think a little bit with herself.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah

Laura J. Mayo: for the situation.

Andrea Martucci: And I think yeah basically is she any better in the situation? She doesn't enjoy the wealth and prosperity or whatever, but she's benefiting from it.

Even parental affection in this world is basically non existent. Lan's own mother never said I love you basically had very little affection I think maybe in some ways because Lan is like an extra mouth to feed and then makes her own mother's existence more difficult but yeah, so I don't [00:54:00] know, we're talking about like an entire generation of people who literally don't even understand the concept of love.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, and the mom originally she's kneeling in front of him and Azreal's like, well give me your daughter, and she's like, she's all I have, don't take her, she's all I have, and then throws gold, and she's like, well that's a good trade. I guess you can have all I have.

I don't think the mom changed her mind in that moment, I think she literally is like, this is all I have, but do I have to give away all I have? And Lan made that same decision earlier. She talks about being a dolly. Her mom said, was giving all you have.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah.

Laura J. Mayo: And she does it. And then this mom is saying, this daughter is all I have.

And she gives it away. And I keep saying it, but like the practicality is so removed from love in this world. And that's the existence that everyone around her has grown up in. And Lan, I think is hoping it would change. And it's just time and time again, it's proving that it's not going to.

Andrea Martucci: Okay, so let's talk about the end.

Laura J. Mayo: Okay.

Andrea Martucci: Azreal goes off and leaves Haven.

Laura J. Mayo: We don't know this at first either. Lan leaves first, and we follow her around, and then Revenants starts showing up, and after she leaves, he clears England.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah.

Laura J. Mayo: The entire thing.

Andrea Martucci: No living people in England.

Laura J. Mayo: You can either leave, or I'll stick you on a pike, or you're gonna become one of the revenants. Most people left, I think some tried to make a stand, didn't work in their favor, wasn't going to, and so even Lan leaves, and she goes to France for a little bit, because there's nothing for her in England anymore, she visits Norwood, they shit all over her. Which is also really interesting because like she did what she set out to do Yeah, she ended the eaters and she comes back and not only does she not even get like a hero's welcome she doesn't even get like a hi nice to see you welcome.

Yeah, they like a oh look at you Like yeah, oh, it looks like you've been eating well at Azreal's house She's like I just saved humanity, but okay.

And so she yeah It goes and gets she goes to France stays there for a little bit comes back and they had said like any human who steps foot on England's shores dead.

But she obviously makes it back to Norwood and is followed by a revenant. And she asks him, like, when did you know I was back? And he's like, oh, from the second you got off the boat.

And then so she gets taken back.

And it's from, is it Deimos? Is that his name? Yeah. Okay. But so he's there instead of Azreal. And keeps asking, and he keeps hedging, we'll talk to him in a minute. And then when she gets there realizes he's been gone. And this guy's been in charge, and yeah, so they set out to find him, and was it Switzerland?

Is it the Alps that they're referencing? I think it's the Alps, yeah. Yeah, cause they, they take him on

Andrea Martucci: they're on the continent.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah. They aren't sure where he's going, even she's like, why would I know where he is? He could be anywhere, and she's like, but I know someone who might, and it's Serafina, who was one of the original cohort

Andrea Martucci: It's like a servant of one of his children.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, and so she was there when they got nuked. So she was one of that little group who somehow made it out, because his children made it out too, so some people did survive and went with them, but so she knew where this place was, and so they convince her, they actually don't really need to convince her, do they?

She's kind of willing to go get her guy get the boss, so she goes and they follow her, and [00:57:00] so it's Lan and Deimos who is a revenant and Seraphina who's the undead handmaiden, and they go to the Alps.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, and so they go, they find him deep in this cave where he was able to protect his children from like the literal blast.

And he's down there and they talk and basically make up and he decides to come back and so I think Deimos finds a dog at some point and he clearly is appreciating this dog, not that he would ever say it, right? He like trains the dog and everything. And they on back to Haven.

And so first of all, there's like tens of thousands of dead people piked outside of the palace. Um, The edges of London are super cool.

Laura J. Mayo: Decorated with,

Andrea Martucci: yeah, bodies. And now decaying, at least they're not eaters.

And they get back and her and Azreal are like in a whole new place, and then he's like, Oh, I've gotta go the electricity is gonna turn off, I've gotta go take care of some stuff, I'm gonna be gone for a little bit.

And she hasn't been feeling well since they got back. But they're like settling into this, domesticity, and she's like, I still hate Haven. Can we just get out of here?

And I feel like there's this sense of dread where ever since they got back from the place that got nuked, she comes back with a weird sunburn and it hurts particularly where his arm was around her in sleep And I feel like as a reader, we're like, oh my god, she has radiation poisoning!

But like the dead doctor he doesn't understand this, right? So he's like, ah, she's malingering she's just making it up.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, I was, I was reading that being like, oh, the male doctor is minimizing this woman's symptoms and telling her it's because of a sunburn and that she was like, what overreacting?

Yeah. So I was like yeah, that sounds about right. Sure.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah. Yeah. So she's, she's like literally like vomiting all the time, and then there's like this brief period where Azreal's like, you're vomiting. In the morning. And he thinks that while she was away, she must have had an affair with a human man, and become pregnant.

literally is just like, what are you talking about? I don't even know. No, so anyways, we find out that she's literally weeks away from dying of radiation sickness.

Laura J. Mayo: Her hair starts falling out, and yeah, she's getting incredibly sick, and Serafina, which, I love this about Serafina, too, because you think all Serafina wanted was Azrael to come back and she comes back, Lan's responsible for it, and she's still like, I hate you.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, she she never comes around,

Laura J. Mayo: which I was like, good for you, Serafina. Even she's like just grossed out. Yeah, she's not trying to help and it's only after Lan vomits blood She's like, oh, you're not supposed to do that. Like you were gross up until now, but now something's wrong

Andrea Martucci: well, and she's like If Azreal comes back like he's coming back tomorrow, and if I haven't gotten you to the doctor I'm gonna be like even then she's ugh, this is such an inconvenience to me.

Laura J. Mayo: You're the worst Lan.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, so yeah, so we find out she has radiation sickness and - Laura I was reading this yesterday and I was just crying on the couch, like, because [01:00:00] it's like she knows she's dying and the human doctor has given her pills that obviously would kill her. This is like a horrible death, and just to hold on to, and she has good days and bad days, and then she mostly is having bad days, and she's just sitting there staring at the pills, like, when am I going to end this?

And I feel like also as the reader, we know that Azreal has the ability to raise dead people. Yeah. And it's like it goes really unspoken for a while and Azreal's like, hey, why haven't you asked me? Do you not want to be with me? And yeah, so how does she explain, like, why she hasn't brought this up?

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, cause she's like, what do you mean why haven't I asked you? The first time I asked you, you lost your mind and kicked me out and so she brings that up with him to be like you didn't want me when I was at my best. This would have been the most beautiful I've ever been, and you hated that idea, threw me out in a violent way, because she's like, well, look at me, yeah, you're gonna say this and.

He's like, well, I see completely past that.

Andrea Martucci: I see you as you're the person I love. He doesn't quite say that, but

Laura J. Mayo: And she was scared, too, because she was like, I already asked you, and you turned me down hard, and I didn't want to ask you again and have that same reaction, and yet he's looking at it like, don't you want to love me and be with me?

And she's like, well, yes, but not in this condition, first of all, and second of all, because I was afraid to ask you, and it was like, this is the communication block on that one. Not knowing who should bring up the conversation.

But yeah, I was, oh, and then when she was like, I'll wait till after the rain.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, because there's this running theme that like, bad things always happen when it's raining. And so first of all, when he leaves on his trip, she's like, you have to leave on a sunny day. Yeah. But then, yeah she's like, am I ever going to see a sunny day again?

And. And she finally, just before she dies, appreciates the stars.

She's like, they're just dots. Yeah in the sky. They're just whatever and she's like, well, I know you appreciate them. And so I have started to appreciate them now.

So he knows she likes coffee. He makes her a pot of Drugs coffee to basically poison her but like in a pleasant way.

Yeah and they're having this conversation literally after she's started drinking the coffee. I was like the bold choice there, Azreal. And he basically goes forgive me. I'm going to do this, whether you

Laura J. Mayo: Well, And then she's talking to him about death and she lets on that she is a little scared.

She's like, is it dark? Because he would know. He can control death. And he just is very sweetly like, you won't be in the dark. Yeah. Just trying to comfort her also, but also saying I don't think you're going to hang out there very long anyway. Yeah. But no, it was still very sweet of him to just be like, no, I you won't be in the dark no matter what happens, you won't be lost in the dark.

And yeah, then has this very sweet monologue. I found it sweet. He's who we expect him to be in that moment where he's like, if I was a better person, if I was the person you deserve, I'd do a nice funeral for you and I would leave you and we'd say our goodbyes.

He's like, I can't do that. Yeah. Nope. And then he raises her up again, similar to his children where she has the option to love him.

Andrea Martucci: But critically, she has her memories.

Laura J. Mayo: Yes.

Andrea Martucci: Which he always wiped their memories. So his children never knew who they were before.

Laura J. Mayo: And resented him for that.

Yeah. [01:03:00] But also, knowing what he knew about what could happen with the children, said, I'll still raise her with the option to love me. Because he says something to the effect of, if I made you a revenant where you didn't have any self control, you wouldn't be Lan. And this is what I love you for, is that you will challenge me and that you're here because you want to be like that This is a choice that you've made to be with me and to be by my side And so I think that was a lovely risk for him was to say yeah, you saw how awful this went with those three I'm like begging me to kill them

Andrea Martucci: Yeah,

Laura J. Mayo: and still took that chance with her to be like I want you to want to be here,

it could all go to shit, but I want you to want to be here

Andrea Martucci: it's like she dies and we're in Lan's perspective. So we know she dies and then she comes back and she's like, I'm not hungry anymore. I'm not in pain.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah.

Andrea Martucci: But she remembers everything. And as soon as she realizes like, Oh, I'm back from the dead. She goes, ask me to take off your loincloth. And he goes, take off my loincloth. She was like, no. So, So we know that she's retained her autonomy and ability to love him and that he isn't trying to control wipe her memory and be like, you love me! Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, okay, yeah, you're gonna remember the time I strangled you and almost killed you, and you're gonna remember all the people I killed,

Laura J. Mayo: and what a risk for him, because that's the first time he's done that, and he had the option to do this the whole time, and was like, no, because If I leave them like I'm leaving Lan, they will hate me.

Yeah, so he has to take this major risk with her being like, she could hate me for this. But I'm gonna try and do this and that was, I thought that was a good ending for him, cause yeah, I would have been furious if he let her die

Andrea Martucci: oh my god, I think as a reader like, oh my god, she's really dying

like,

Laura J. Mayo: it's on my phone So I won't throw it, but metaphorically I will chuck this thing if they were like, oh we'll let her go, if that was the lesson he learned.

Andrea Martucci: Oh my god.

Laura J. Mayo: No, absolutely not.

Andrea Martucci: And I think also, I think it would just be like really frustrating, it's like you gave him the ability to raise the dead, it's like Chekhov's ability to raise the dead, come on, like this is the one time we want you to use this.

Laura J. Mayo: If his ending was like, we're gonna have a nice funeral for her, I've learned my lesson about raising the dead, I would have lost my mind.

Andrea Martucci: And I think also that would make it not at all a romance.

Laura J. Mayo: You know that the HEA would be yeah, but I did for him, I thought that was just such a lovely Ending because he still did it and raised her up but Losing a lot of the control in that

Andrea Martucci: a hundred percent. Yeah,

Laura J. Mayo: I think that was back to what you're saying about control.

He had to make all these concessions and had to give up a certain amount of control for her to want to be in this relationship,

Andrea Martucci: and if you love something, let it go, and if it comes back to you, let it die of radiation poisoning.

And if

Laura J. Mayo: you raise it from the dead and it wants to be with you, it's true love. It's meant to be.

Andrea Martucci: And then I think they find an island off the I don't know, the Hebrides or something. I don't know. They find some little rustic island, and they're gonna live with a very small group of [01:06:00] undead servants or whatever, and so I think it's like Lan gets the home she's always wanted, and it's like a place where he can actually heal and she can be with him. They're true companions, and I think it's also healing the world where maybe people will forget he existed, right?

And they really can go off and live there and keep people away and live out their existence as they want without being bothered. Like maybe also the land will heal and people will just forget. I believe that given enough time, Azreal literally becomes a quote unquote normal looking man.

Once he's not inflicting wounds on himself or other people, he literally will heal and I think that's the part where just it feels to me it's not literal.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, this entire book was like a meditation on relationships.

Laura J. Mayo: And I think that ties it back to the horror genre as well.

Yeah, horror often is not literal. Obviously there's extreme horror lit and that's its own thing but a lot of horror is just giving you the space to investigate these things in an environment where it's safe to feel those things so you're reading horror because it's safe to feel frightened and you can grapple with that in the same way like romance is like a chance for that as well.

And so when you marry the two yeah it's like it's giving you the space to investigate -

Andrea Martucci: oh, yeah. I mean like the violence is not nuanced.

Laura J. Mayo: Right right,

Andrea Martucci: but I think the message is

Laura J. Mayo: But giving you the space to go into these kind of darker themes and sit with them in an environment that's not our world, so you can have that little separation so you can go to this world, investigate, feel those feelings, and then be like, we don't have zombies where we live and no one's being impaled anymore.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, I think if you tried to take this book and put it in the contemporary world and then have horror to the extent as exists in this book, I think that many readers, maybe myself included, would just find it very difficult to see it as a metaphor, you know what I mean?

Yeah I think it would be much more like, I don't know, that's bad, he's a bad person. like, you know, like, we start getting in our own way, in terms of, absorbing it whereas oh, I'm in a world with witches or with undead whoever or with zombies or oh, actually it's dystopian and the world isn't or actually it's Regency England and things were different back then- like all of these I think are ways to escape into another space where as you were saying you have the ability to reframe things because you're not coming into it with all these assumptions about the world that we live in.

So yeah, we can let go of some things. Are we rooting for somebody who has literally committed a genocide against the human race like, You know, yes a hundred percent. I am in this world

Laura J. Mayo: this context. Yes. I think those darker themes in romance, because people will be like, I think this sends a bad message, and my whole thing is no, that's a playground.

The same way you would play with your Barbies, my Barbies were not dressing up and having a nice day. You know what I mean?

Andrea Martucci: What were your Barbies doing?

Laura J. Mayo: They were in car crashes, they were like, they were [01:09:00] experiencing some horrible things, but it was like my child mind working those things out.

And I think in a grown up world, that's what these books do, is you can take these horrible things and put them on a shelf, and like, you know, pull it out when you need to. And am I influenced by this, am I gonna leave my husband who is not committing genocide to find a guy like Azreal?

Absolutely not.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah.

Laura J. Mayo: But it's a way to explore those feelings.

Andrea Martucci: And you're not gonna leave Will to go find you know

Laura J. Mayo: a devil

Andrea Martucci: but maybe when Will- I'm not even saying you would do this -but maybe he says something insensitive. It's like the way you come back from the Land of the Beautiful Dead is you have this moment of who hurt you, Will?

I guess building empathy and again not for people who commit genocide in real life.

Laura J. Mayo: This is like a real empathy challenge because yeah, by the end of it you are empathizing with a person who's done these horrible things and you're like, I get it. I totally understand, in this world, why you did what you did, and understanding and walking the person back from that and separating the person from those things, and,

Andrea Martucci: yeah.

Yeah, no, I think that it was a really interesting question to start with, right? Which is just, can horror and romance coexist? And, I think yes, I think this book proves it, but I think you know, something I say a lot with romance is like romance is about a feeling and I think like the feeling is hope, usually, that's like the feeling.

I think there's also other feelings we start to associate with a particular type of romance. So I think that in some ways this book is a romance. It ends with hope. It's hitting big picture of the beats. I think it has something really interesting to say about love and relationships, but on the other hand there are also other romance feelings that people start to expect because that is their history with romance where they're like, it feels like a romance novel when I feel these feelings.

I don't think this book meets those expectations, right? If you're looking for like a nice little carefree feelings and fucking or whatever but I think that it's no less valid. It's exploring different aspects of empathy and relationships and hope and romance.

Laura J. Mayo: Oh, yeah, and I think sometimes when people are like, oh, I don't like romance I'm like, are you sure you just haven't read the right one? As much as I write like funny light things, that's not what I read. Having a light fluffy romance isn't going to be my thing, and if that's all you picture of romance, it's going to be a big disappointment, but there's this other way, and so now it's like, I do like horror, and I do like romance, I read romance, and I do enjoy it, but it's a neat. way for me to come into it. You know what I mean?

And I'm glad you suggested this book because yeah, I was like very confused at first of like, well, how do you marry the two? I liked how the horror element was the backdrop and it wasn't part of the romance, which I think is important because yeah, the impaling was not sexual or romantic in any [01:12:00] way, and nor was it designed to be.

Andrea Martucci: Well as opposed to this serial killer romance that I read and hated where they're like dissolving a body in a vat of acid and then it turns them on and they're like fucking in front of it like, it's not that.

Laura J. Mayo: I've not read that one.

Andrea Martucci: You don't need to.

Laura J. Mayo: I got the gist right here.

Andrea Martucci: So actually in a way you also said, is horror romance like dark romance? I think dark romance you're supposed to get off on the darkness a bit.

Laura J. Mayo: Oh, really?

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, I don't know. Not for this conversation to deeply interrogate that, but I don't know.

I just, after coming out of this conversation, I'm like, yeah, but the titillation of the horror is very different.

Laura J. Mayo: And because I think that's what I was most worried about was, yeah, I don't read horror to get turned on. That's not where I'm coming from.

Andrea Martucci: The arousal is coming from different places.

Not sexy arousal.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah. So I'm like, okay, how do you, yeah, how do you marry these two without making it and I think that's what I was picturing, was like, I'm gonna fall for the serial killer, and I would just have a really hard time separating real life from that book, as opposed to this, where it's this is so far removed from real life.

And same with ghost stories. They're so far removed from real life, at least for me that it's easier to get into that world and explore those things.

Andrea Martucci: Let's talk about your book for a second.

I really enjoyed How to Summon a Fairy Godmother, and like my listeners know, guys, I would not be saying this if it was not 100 percent true. I really enjoyed it. So your heroine is Lady Theodosia Balfour, who is the ugly stepsister.

Laura J. Mayo: Yep, one of the two.

Andrea Martucci: One of the two, yeah. I will say, reading your book, there was like a period of time where I was like there's got to be more to the story and I was expecting it but I was expecting a turnaround to come much sooner than it did but like in a delicious way where I was kind of like yeah make me feel uncomfortable a little bit longer here before seeing a quick turnaround of, no, she's actually a good person, and I think that's what really reminded me, like the parallels between these books where like Azreal doesn't turn around and love her on like page five, right? It's it takes a really long time and it's a journey.

Laura J. Mayo: Nor did he have in the book the whole moment of like, I'm going to change for love.

Andrea Martucci: Oh yeah.

Laura J. Mayo: He didn't do that. Yeah, I wanted to take Cinderella and the stepsisters. What if the events happened as they say. So it isn't a retelling where I'm like, oh no, we just didn't understand, and maybe Cinderella didn't actually do that. It's oh no, this happened exactly as she said, now what?

But what made her that way? And I was always curious because the stepmother is so awful in every iteration. And back to what we were talking about with mothers in this one too. She's not winning awards for motherhood or stepmother. And she's terrible to her own kids.

Even in the Disney version, she's terrible to her own kids. But no one's ever like, oh my god, that poor family. They're always like, oh poor Cinderella, those two suck. But, this is who was raising them, and they lost a parent too.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah.

Laura J. Mayo: And no one is ever like, oh my god like, grief hits people differently and maybe we should like, empathize with them.

Everyone's like, they suck, and they deserved everything they got.

What if it did happen the way we thought, but what if there were some reasons behind it, and went from there, and just was like, maybe I can make it funny yeah, [01:15:00] kind of just let myself go nuts on that. So yeah, I just focus on the one younger, so I have them as Cinderella's kind of the middle child, so there's an older stepsister, Cinderella who's in this one named Beatrice and then the younger one who's in this one named Theodosia.

Andrea Martucci: For the romance listeners out there, there's two love interests and I will say right now they're both very delicious in their own way, and I don't know who I'm rooting for but there's a very satisfying ending to the first book, but if I understand correctly, there's at least another book, if not more.

Laura J. Mayo: Yeah, right now it's just a scheduled duology. So there's one more coming, and that'll be coming next October. So the first book is out now, and then the second one will be coming next October.

Andrea Martucci: Okay, and are you done with it? No.

Laura J. Mayo: That's so weird. I know where it's gonna go. I know everything about where it's going, about who ends up where, and who ends up with who.

Andrea Martucci: Okay, and you're not going to tell me this right now. I don't even want you to, even if you told me in secret. Does she end up with a romantic partner? Okay.

Laura J. Mayo: She does, yes.

Andrea Martucci: And do you know who it is?

Laura J. Mayo: Yes.

Andrea Martucci: Okay, I think something that annoys me about love triangles in romance novels is it's not two viable candidates.

It's always like one obvious endgame candidate and then somebody else who it like it just never feels like it's ever an option And I will say in your book. I was like, I don't know I'm excited for that and yeah, you should get writing.

Laura J. Mayo: I know.

Andrea Martucci: What are you doing here? Get out of here. Thank you so much for being here.

Laura J. Mayo: Thank you for having me. This is really fun.

Andrea Martucci: This is really fun. Yeah. And so as I said, Laura is literally here. She brought her family and I told my daughter I was like showing her pictures. I was like, look, you used to be like a baby laying on the floor with this other baby.

such good times,

Laura J. Mayo: that was like my big advice for my sister when she had her baby. I was like, find these people find those other moms and dads who have had their first kid and are in the same place that you are, and I think that was like really important for me because just of how awful the pregnancy and delivery was of my first one.

She was preemie, and finally being able to leave my house and then not knowing like anyone else and like the friends you do have not really knowing like I have to be home by this time because my kid needs to nap and then you come across this group of other women who are like, oh, yeah no, we totally get all of that everything you're going through We totally understand and when you need to leave early, we totally understand and like we understand your schedule, and it was just so nice to have that group of people to turn to, and that was, instrumental, I think, in getting me to get out of the house right after having this little tiny baby.

Andrea Martucci: It was such an ordeal to get out of the house in those days. Sometimes we'd go someplace. That was wild. But sometimes it was literally just going to each other's houses, and having something to do, and literally like sitting like tits out in each other's houses just do you know what I mean?

Like just, I think that level of just yep, this is where we're at and just changing diapers, feeding our babies and just doing what we need to do and not feeling like we need to apologize or oh, let me put a blanket over

Laura J. Mayo: Do you remember we were at [01:18:00] the restaurant in I think Applecrest, do you remember? We were like all nursing our babies at the same time. There was like four of us. And what did the woman say? She came over and she said are you all related or something? And you went, yes. Why would we all be related?

Just being like, yep.

Andrea Martucci: We're sister wives. No offense to sister wives out there who are listening to this podcast.

Laura J. Mayo: We wish you the best.

Andrea Martucci: Yeah, we wish you the best. We said that in honor of you, not as a joke. Okay.

So Laura, if people want to find you on the internet. Where would they go?

Laura J. Mayo: I am mostly active on Instagram, a little bit on Blue Sky. And it's pretty much everywhere at thatlaurajmayo is the handle for everything. I'm online at laurajmayo. com so you can find me there as well and that'll direct you to my socials as well.

Andrea Martucci: Laura, again, thanks for being here. I'm excited, and now we're going to go eat lunch. Our husbands, we have sent them off to do some domestic labor and bring us food.

Yep.

Laura J. Mayo: Yep. We'll see how they did. Yeah. I believe in them. I do too. Okay. Strong opinions about my husband. He's great.

Andrea Martucci: He would never commit genocide.

Laura J. Mayo: He would never commit genocide in a million years.

Bye!

Andrea Martucci: Hey, thanks for spending time with me today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate or review on your favorite podcast app or tell a friend. Check out Shelflovepodcast.com for transcripts and other resources. If you want regular written updates from Shelf Love, you can increasingly find me over at Substack.

Read occasional updates and short essays about romance at shelflovepodcast.Substack.com. Thank you to Shelf Love's $20 a month Patreon supporters: Gail, Copper Dog Books, and Frederick Smith. Have a great day. Hold on one second. I'm gonna just yell at children. Sorry, not yell at them.

Laura J. Mayo: I can understand what you're

Andrea Martucci: Hey patriarchs? Can you control the children? Can you control the volume of the children?

ok we're going to record now. Ok thanks.

Andrea Martucci: Okay, all right. Let's do it. You ready?

Laura J. Mayo: I think so.

Andrea Martucci: Okay.

Laura J. Mayo: The first time we ever had a marketing meeting, I was like, I will need help. Like, okay. I was like, I don't want you to have to like Baby Bjorn me to the marketing department, but like, I will need your help.

Okay.

I'm glad I have that recording. That goes in the back.

Listen now!

Guests

Alyssa Cole, Amanda Allen, Amanda Cinelli, Amanda Diehl, Andrea Martucci, Andrew Piper, Angela Toscano, Arielle Zibrak, Ash Dylan, Becky, Bree, Bree Hill, Candice Ransom, Carter Sherman, Charish Reid, Christina Fattore, Copper Dog Books, Dani Lacey, Danielle Knafo, Denise Williams, Diana Filar, Dr. Margo Hendricks, EE Ottoman, Emma, Emma Barry, Eric Selinger, Erin Leafe, Esme Brett, Fangirl Jeanne, Felicia Grossman, Funmi B., Hannah Hearts Romance, Helena Greer, Hsu Ming Teo, Huike Wen, Jack Harbon, Jayashree Kamble, Jennifer Crusie, Jess, Jessica Lyn Van Slooten, Jhen, Jodi McAlister, Jodie Slaughter, Joe Martucci, John Jacobson, Julie Moody-Freeman, Karelia Stetz-Waters, Kassi, Kate Clayborn, Katee Robert, Katherine Grant, Katrina Jackson, Kelly Reynolds, Kennedy Ryan, Kianna Alexander, Kini Allen, Kit Rocha, Laura J. Mayo, Leigh Kramer, Lucy Hargrave, Lucy Score, Lynell, Margarita Guillory, Margo Hendricks, Maria DeBlassie, Megan Erickson, Mia Sosa, Nicola Welsh Burke, Nicole Falls, Norma Perez-Hernandez, Penny Reid, Philippa Borland, Rebecca Romney, Rebekah Weatherspoon, Reformed Rakes, Renee Dahlia, Rosie Danan, Ruby Lang, Sandra Kitt, Sarah Rutherford, Sarah Skilton, Scarlett Peckham, Sionna Fox, Sri Savita, Steve Ammidown, Suzanne Jefferies, Talia Hibbert, Tamara Lush, Tasha L. Harrison, The Swoonies, Tif Marcelo, Tina Benigno, Whoa!mance, Whoamance, fangirl jeanne

Horror Romance and Land of the Beautiful Dead

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