Sought, Surrender, and the Alien Erotics of Inevitability
Short Description
Dame Jodie Slaughter is back to discuss Sought by Evangeline Anderson, a sci-fi alien romance from the Brides of the Kindred series featuring twin alien heroes, fated mates, dubiously consensual erotic worldbuilding, and a surprisingly useful framework for understanding what different readers seek from romance.
Rather than treating Sought as simply good, bad, hot, weird, or problematic, we use it as a case study in readerly fantasy: why do some romance novels need to name coercion explicitly, while others use worldbuilding to make coercion feel erotic or safe? And what happens when a book’s fantasy is legible but fundamentally not yours?
We talk about dubious consent, consensual non-consent, body betrayal, alien biology, plus-size desirability fantasies, “safe” dangerous men, competence porn, monster/self-cest logic, paranormal romance, sexy animals, and why Andrea wants everyone to stop talking and negotiate better while Jodie is perfectly willing to be carried away by the right kind of chaos.
This is an episode about Sought, but it is also an episode about reader reception: not whether a fantasy is objectively good or bad, but what emotional problem it solves.
Tags
scifi and fantasy romance, romance novel discussion
Show Notes
Dame Jodie Slaughter is back to discuss Sought by Evangeline Anderson, a sci-fi alien romance from the Brides of the Kindred series featuring twin alien heroes, fated mates, dubiously consensual erotic worldbuilding, and a surprisingly useful framework for understanding what different readers seek from romance.
Rather than treating Sought as simply good, bad, hot, weird, or problematic, we use it as a case study in readerly fantasy: why do some romance novels need to name coercion explicitly, while others use worldbuilding to make coercion feel erotic or safe? And what happens when a book’s fantasy is legible but fundamentally not yours?
We talk about dubious consent, consensual non-consent, body betrayal, alien biology, plus-size desirability fantasies, “safe” dangerous men, competence porn, monster/self-cest logic, paranormal romance, sexy animals, and why Andrea wants everyone to stop talking and negotiate better while Jodie is perfectly willing to be carried away by the right kind of chaos.
This is an episode about Sought, but it is also an episode about reader reception: not whether a fantasy is objectively good or bad, but what emotional problem it solves.
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Discussed: Sought by Evangeline Anderson
Guest: Dame Jodie Slaughter, Shelf Love’s Director of Digital Publishing
Transcript
Andrea Martucci: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to Shelf Love, a podcast about romance novels and how they reflect, explore, challenge, and shape desire. I'm your host, Andrea Martucci, and on this episode, I am joined once again by Dame Jodie Slaughter. Today, she is our Director of DP, that is director of digital publishing, and we are here today to discuss Sought by Evangeline Anderson.
Jodie, thank you so much for being here, and what can you tell us about what is happening in the world of DP?
Jodie Slaughter: First of all, thank you for having me.
Andrea Martucci: Of course, anytime
Jodie Slaughter: ecstatic to be back. I will say that this morning in bed I was with my partner, going over some things about this book, introducing concepts for the first time. And I think what I wanna say about DP is that I had to clarify this for him, I feel like we should clarify this for everyone else. The DP is two in one hole.
Andrea Martucci: Two poles, one hole.
Jodie Slaughter: One hole. I [00:01:00] think that the natural inclination is to believe that it's two poles, two holes. But
Andrea Martucci: W- or one pole per hole.
Jodie Slaughter: yes, one pole per hole. Excuse me.
Andrea Martucci: One pole per hole to hold.
Jodie Slaughter: That would be four, four poles per
Andrea Martucci: That would be extreme.
Jodie Slaughter: be extreme.
Andrea Martucci: Is not.
Jodie Slaughter: not extreme. In Evangeline Anderson's world
Andrea Martucci: totally normal.
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah
Andrea Martucci: Yeah. Why don't we actually just talk about this book? What is this book about? Because, 'cause here's the thing, Jodie, I'm gonna let you explain the book, and I wanna hear why you wanted to talk about this book, right? And I'll let you define how and why.
I just wanna tell you off the bat, though, that thinking about this book unlocked an understanding in me that I literally felt like my intellectual universe exploded.
Jodie Slaughter: Okay, that's what I wanted to happen ultimately. Okay, so
Andrea Martucci: Yeah, what's this book about?
Jodie Slaughter: Book i- is by an author named Evangeline Anderson, who is a [00:02:00] pretty prolific, science fiction alien romance, self-pub author. This series is called Brides of the Kindred, and it alone has I think 30-plus books in it, and it is not her only, alien series, right?
So, uh, her follow these, Kindred race of aliens, and there are subKategories of the aliens, and Sought is about, twin Kindred,
Andrea Martucci: Twindreds
Jodie Slaughter: which are effectively it's always like twin, brothers. And they say that, among Kindred there's always a light brother and a dark brother. In Evangeline Anderson's world that just means one of them is blonde and one of them has dark hair, okay?
Andrea Martucci: Predictably, the dark-haired one is like broodier and moody and dangerous. Not really, but yeah
Jodie Slaughter: but yeah, effectively. And the twin [00:03:00] Kindred men they share essentially like a soulmate. And the only way that they can like bond and reproduce via an ancient
Andrea Martucci: bonding,
Jodie Slaughter: Bonding-
Andrea Martucci: by bonding their dicks together
Jodie Slaughter: Their penises fuse together inside of their bride and, that sort of completes the bond and also enables them to breed. and Sought follows, the story of, two, Kindred brothers, Deep and Lock, and their journey to, come together,
Andrea Martucci: Literally, figuratively
Jodie Slaughter: to like claim and mate, their bride who is this human woman named Kat. there is obviously a lot of I don't know what, like interplanetary space action, alien action intrigue. Like that like [00:04:00] ultimately who cares? That's not... I remember very little of that because I simply, like that's not why I'm here at all.
I have read, three I think of the twin Kindred books, and then I've read like a couple more of the like non-twin Kindred where it's just like one Kindred guy and then, alien or alien guy and then like a human woman. Books all follow this general th- obviously one twin is like, "This is our mate, we need to bond with her. We need to bond together." And then the other twin, the darker twin, is very much like, "No," for whatever his
Andrea Martucci: tortured,
Jodie Slaughter: are. Yeah,
Andrea Martucci: tortured past. Like, he's been hurt in the past. He did something wrong. He doesn't deserve her, and so he is going to like, antagonize her and push her away 'cause he can't let her in, and then she's gonna be like, "Ugh, you've been an asshole to me this entire time, but, I can tell there's some [00:05:00] deep hurt inside of you, and I need you to be vulnerable with me."
And then it turns out that he's a big old softie all along
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah exactly.
Andrea Martucci: Yeah loves her. He's just, he's tortured.
Yeah
Jodie Slaughter: I'd read this book and anything that I'd read out of the series, like, years ago, and we were on the phone in a private conversation, a couple weeks ago, and we were talking about something else, and then we were talking about maybe doing a podcast, and this was the first thing, because I immediately started thinking about something that you'd said probably an hour before this came up. I was like, "Oh, this is what we should read." I had not revisited this book. I think I'd read it, a couple times, but I had not revisited it since,
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: of been texting me. I was very adamant in my head, like, it's not, it's not incest. Like, so there's something-- I was almost even convinced that the brothers weren't real [00:06:00] twins.
I was like, "No, they're just bond twins." And then I was revisiting this book, and I was like, "It's 100% incest, and they are 100% twins." they are... It's not incest in that... I mean, it is, right? But, like, she's really skirting around some...
Andrea Martucci: well Yeah, and I think that there... Oh God, there was one line in particular that I highlighted, now I can't find it, and I almost texted it to you. And it was something like, "Isn't it weird to, fuse your dick with your brother's dick and slide it into a woman and only ever be able to, like, have sex with your brother in bed?"
And they're like, "I feel no sexual desire for my brother. It's all about you. But we both have to do it. Like, I literally can't get hard unless my brother's in the room."
Jodie Slaughter: Unless my brother's inside you. Yeah. I will say that in universe, like other people who are not twin Kindred do find [00:07:00] this strange and freaky to an extent, I think
Andrea Martucci: Yes, but also, there's always an aspect of each, subspecies of, or whatever kind of Kindred. The first one was beast Kindred, and they're, like, violent, but not really, of course, right? And the first heroine in that situation is like, "I'm so scared." Like, "Ugh, he's, like, so wild and out of control."
And then and then, the second one is like, "Ugh, these Kindred suck blood. That's wild. Ugh, I f- that is so gross. Blah." And then, like, those are the friends.
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah
Andrea Martucci: Those two gals are womb mates. And also, their partners are also brothers. Wait, are they twins?
Jodie Slaughter: I don't think so
Andrea Martucci: I don't think the first- I think they're brothers, but not twins.
Jodie Slaughter: twins,
Andrea Martucci: But one of them is light and one of them is dark. And I started reading the first [00:08:00] book with the Beast Kindred, and it's like a world in which, everybody knows about the Kindred because they have essentially saved Earth from this bad alien species, the Scourge, Scourge.
And, despite the fact that there's literal aliens in this world, and they all know about them, and all the women who are not married of a certain age are, like, entered into a draft and know that they could be chosen as an alien bride, and if they're chosen, they have, no choice-ish
Jodie Slaughter: yeah.
Andrea Martucci: Mostly for, for all intents and purposes.
And prior to one of them being drafted, they have, zero curiosity about this and, zero knowledge. The entire time they're just being flung into one situation after another and are, like, throwing tantrums and resisting. But, like, literally nothing bad happens to them at the hands [00:09:00] of their alien mates, their fated mates in all of these cases.
I'll get to the part that unlocked something for me, but, in this third book, there's, like, a scene in which they're like, "Oh my God, they both penetrate you?" And they're kind of like, "Is that any weirder than, like, getting bitten during sex?"
Like, it's like they have this moment where they're like, "Huh, no, I guess it's not, but we're gonna all react the exact same way every time we encounter something new."
So here's, here's what this unlocked for me, is, you told me about this book series, and by the way, I think that, the context was I was talking about Claire Kent, who is an author for me who like, she'll send an email on Friday, like, "New book out," and I'm just like, "Boop, buy," and then spend the next available couple of hours reading the book.
If it's in the dystopian series, I don't even give a shit. I just buy it, and I read it. And sometimes I like the books better than others, but I always buy it and like I have complaints about the [00:10:00] books, but I still buy it.
I was like, "Hey, Jodie," like once I started reading this book, I was like, "Hey, remind me why you wanted me to read this."
'Cause it was, it was admittedly a little bit painful, but I've made you read things that you found a bit painful. So I was- so I was thinking about it and I was like, huh, why is it that, there are some books where I'm like, well, yeah, it's flawed, but I can read it quickly and enjoy it and I can a- acknowledge where it's messed up or flawed, but like I find it pleasurable.
And I was like, I feel like we're like diametrically opposed because yeah. I was like, why is that?
Jodie Slaughter: They're so different.
Andrea Martucci: Yeah
Jodie Slaughter: I think that whatever it is with this book, I think that, so like, you know, going back to the sort of bizarre random acknowledgement of like, "This is so strange," among the... It's, I think it's Evangeline Anderson's way of attempting to acknowledge the [00:11:00] inherent absurdity in this, and it's just the way that she's glommed onto is this is how I'm gonna give a wink and say, 'I know this is weird. Just roll with it, whatever.'"
Andrea Martucci: She gives a wink, but they never play with the wink.
sorry, and by that I mean the asshole. Um,
Jodie Slaughter: yeah. Actually, do you know, in the past that was one of my critiques was I was like, I don't really understand the-- every like, MFM book I've ever read, aside from these,
Somebody's always-- there's always some ass play, and there's none in these.
She's so not interested. I've read another book of hers that you really would not like, I would not recommend it to you, that I did enjoy. It w- I think it's like one of the only books she has that is not like sci-fi. It's just like straight humans. It's like a daddy romance.
It's about these these cops have to go undercover [00:12:00] because women keep turning up like murdered or dead, uh,
Andrea Martucci: As they do when they don't have a daddy to take care of them.
Jodie Slaughter: BDSM clubs
Andrea Martucci: Oh, oh.
Jodie Slaughter: BDSM club. anyway, so they go undercover as one of these couples in order to like figure the thing out. And one of the rules of the club is that the submissive has to be like a butt plug the whole time, it's a really big-- 'cause like she doesn't wanna do it, and he doesn't wanna make her do it. But- They're like
Andrea Martucci: 'Cause they're like colleagues?
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah, they're colleagues.
Andrea Martucci: They're cops?
Jodie Slaughter: They're cops. They're cops. They're
Andrea Martucci: Okay
Jodie Slaughter: cop colleagues. They're partners. And, yeah, she doesn't wanna do it, Like, you know, something happens and she's kind of like, "Okay," "Let's do this so that we can..." 'Cause essentially they're gonna like kick them out of the club if she doesn't do it or whatever. and that, always thought that was such an [00:13:00] interesting thing 'cause it's like very reluctant butt play it's not really revisited I don't think as a th- as a way to reframe it and w- which is like fine, but I do think that Evangeline Anderson is pretty anti
Andrea Martucci: It's very, heteronormative. Like, ex- it's extremely heteronormative in the sense that, everybody is fated, genetically predisposed to not only behaving a particular way, but, finding these things physically pleasurable. And, like, at its core is pairing off or tripling off. But essentially, I mean, like, literally what this book is saying is, we are essentially one unit.
These two men are one unit. They are one man in two bodies.
Jodie Slaughter: And
Andrea Martucci: Like-
Jodie Slaughter: when, I was telling you about this and you were like, "Incest," and I was like, "No, no, you don't get it." Like they f- they are essentially the same guy. They're the [00:14:00] perfect partner. They're the light side of a man and the dark of a side of a man split up, and at a certain point they do become one, via their dicks.
Andrea Martucci: Yeah.
Jodie Slaughter: I was like, "So it's not incest, it's..." And then obviously I was like, that is some real
Andrea Martucci: That's really like a fine, it's like a fine line. And, and I wonder if like, I was actually wondering like why this was allowed, this, this kind of thing was allowed on a platform. And I was like, I wonder if it's because they're aliens, and you can make some sort of like convoluted claim that like, well, they're sentient.
This is their culture. This is their like species or whatever is their culture. But you know what? It made me think a lot about, ... I was revisiting a couple of things as I was like pondering here, and one of them was the conversation about Your Monster with the gals from [00:15:00] Whoa!mance. And like how in that book- in that movie, I should say, she falls in love with her monster, but her monster is just a part of herself that she has hidden away.
And like the core question in that episode was like, is it a romance if the other party in the relationship is essentially just a part of herself? And there's obviously like a sort of m- a message and a metaphorical aspect of that, but you know, as I went through it, I was like, you know, but that's actually like the pleasure of romance sometimes is it's just y- you the reader inhabit not just one party in the relationship, you can actually inhabit multiple parties in the relationship. And I think that it's like taking that idea to an extreme with not even just the reader being able to inhabit multiple perspectives in the relationship, but also literally like... and then what if one of these people also split themselves, like one of the ro- romantic partners split themselves [00:16:00] like the heroine in Your Monster, but like again, they're like physically literally there.
Jodie Slaughter: That's called self-cest by the way.
Andrea Martucci: Self-cest!
Jodie Slaughter: Much a thing
Andrea Martucci: So, like, I was picking up on the like, "Ooh, this is not for me," from the very beginning.
And because I have a very open mind, and I also recognize that, you have had that same experience coming into books, that I've been like, "We must read this." I was like, I was like, "Okay, Andrea, you need, you need to not turn this into like a, 'Well, obviously this book is, like, bad.'" You know? Like, it's not that this book is bad, it's that I have figured out it is just fundamentally not the fantasy that I go to romance for, but I think it is the fantasy you go to romance for.
And so I wanna, I wanna unpack that for a second. So, like, here's, here's, a part that happened recurrently in this book, and I also had, like, started dipping into the first book in the series. And it's like this very coercive dynamic [00:17:00] where, like, the narrative wrapper creates a situation where, like, they have, like, an orgasm ha- she has to have an orgasm to power the ship.
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah
Andrea Martucci: Or, she has to allow them to touch her. She has to allow them to penetrate her, otherwise she'll die, or they'll be killed by the natives, or
Be in violation of the treaty between Earth and the aliens. And that's fine. Like I don't, I don't necess-
Jodie Slaughter: Andrea Martucci: not a fan of fuck or die, uh
Andrea Martucci: No, no, but the part that pissed me off every single time was, A, the moving of the goalposts and the way the coercion was communicated by the, male main characters in this case. Where it was all like, "It's all right. You have to let us do this. We're only gonna do a little bit." And [00:18:00] she's like, "Uh, I really don't want to."
And they're like, "You have to." And she's like, "I guess so." And they're like, "So I guess you really want it. I bet you want us to do even more to you." And I'm like, what? And there was always this dynamic of her being like, "Oh no, I can't let myself. No, I don't wanna... Like, I'm so feisty. No way in hell. I am not gonna let you double penetrate me. I am not gonna let you lick me. I am not..." And, like, a- she instantly folded, not just because of the situation, although that was certainly a part of it, but also because, like, they were coercing her.
Jodie Slaughter: I mean, it's icky, right?
Andrea Martucci: Yeah
Jodie Slaughter: To put it really lightly, obviously. I have been thinking a lot recently, or, and, well, talking a lot recently, mostly with like, um, frankly, and you would probably hate this, like layman, like non-romance fans, 'cause I'm spending a lot of my life trying to, talk [00:19:00] about romance to people who not just don't engage in romance, but, don't read or,
Andrea Martucci: I know people like that, yeah
Jodie Slaughter: they're not, into stuff
Andrea Martucci: Normies, we call them.
Jodie Slaughter: And so sometimes something'll come up, we'll be talking about some other piece of media, and I'll be talking about, like, old school bodice rippers and how they exist in a particular place in time where, women and sex
The view of that obviously really difficult, and writing, attempting to write a woman having pleasurable sex was just like, you know.
Anyway. First of all, actually, h- here's what I'll say caveat. We have spoken a lot about romance novels that, feed our id,
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: and I think my id is, uh, just kind of a lot grosser. Like,
Andrea Martucci: no, no, 'cause I don't think it's, I don't think it's I don't think it's like kinky versus not kinky or like deviant versus like not deviant or something like that. But like I think it, it [00:20:00] is the type of fantasy one is looking for 'Cause like I had the realization where I was like, "You know, it's not just the unequal power structure that's bothering me here."
Because I can read a Kathleen Woodiwiss where the heroine is raped explicitly,
Jodie Slaughter: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Martucci: and she resists and doesn't necessarily have the power to change things initially, but like through her continued pushing and I don't wanna say force of will, but like she maintains a very strong position of like autonomy in it, where she's like, "Well, yeah, you can rape me. And maybe I'll even start to enjoy it at some point, but I am asking for something and you refuse to give it to me, and until you give it to me, I will not fully surrender to you."
Jodie Slaughter: This
Andrea Martucci: And I think
Jodie Slaughter: that, yeah
Andrea Martucci: this isn't that, and I think what I can handle, like even when there's unequal power structures or dynamics like that, I think what I can tolerate [00:21:00] is when it is named,
It's, when it's like explicit, where it's like she's being raped.
Yep, it's rape. Mm-hmm. Yep, she doesn't want this to happen, and he did it, and she is angry about it, right? And there's something about the dynamic here that like, again, it's not my fantasy, and so I'm not able to like forgive it in the way that I will with other things.
It's like the faux feistiness to me, right? Where I'm like, well, this is like a very token resistance, and it's overridden immediately. But the reader is being told that she did consent to it, and she did ask for it, even though it's a completely coercive dynamic where she doesn't really have a choice.
And that's the part that to me is difficult. But like what I realized is the-- I think part of the fantasy for me, like the books that I think of, I'm like this is an auto-buy for me, is it's more of a competency and [00:22:00] partnership dynamic. It's like a ... It's like I want these people to, like, settle in and, like, divvy up domestic chores together.
Like, do you know what I mean? I wanna see how these two people will, navigate conflicts together and, and, like, I want somebody who's always gonna stand by her an- and I'm talking about, heterosexual relationships here. That is the emotional pleasure I am looking for.
And I can tolerate these books that, are not quite that, but, have a core of, like, competency and, the dynamic between the characters is about, like, negotiation
Jodie Slaughter: Sure
Andrea Martucci: Like, I think the negotiation bit is the crucial bit because I don't think there's any real negotiation in these books.
I think it's it's I was overridden, and that's the pleasure.
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah, I think that is, is definitely the fantasy for me. The fantasy for me,
It is one of being overcome, overridden. It's one of like
Andrea Martucci: Surrender
Jodie Slaughter: one of surrender and also, I don't know, protection, even if in a [00:23:00] very like patriarchal way.
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: if I, if I just have to be vulnerable about it.
Andrea Martucci: You have to.
Jodie Slaughter: and patriarchal just means across like the gender of the couple largely just doesn't matter to that. I've read very queer books wherein that is still the dynamic that I'm interested in from a fantasy perspective. From a kink perspective, I do find elements of coercion hot, but I prefer them in a better scenario in which the other per- the person who is being fake coerced is very active in...
I think the negotiation is also really important.
Andrea Martucci: Is it don't wanna say faux surrender, but it's like cons- like, like, hey, wink, wink, we're, like, doing a game [00:24:00] here
Jodie Slaughter: I think that faux surrender is totally... Uh, I mean, think about Willing Victim by which is a book that deals with a rape fantasy, right?
There are books that I have read by, an author who I will not share live on the podcast but will tell you later, that do this, that have a series, that are essentially, like rape fantasy stuff. And, they'll kind of wait till the end,
Andrea Martucci: Consensual non-consent.
Jodie Slaughter: non-consent, correct.
Andrea Martucci: Or y- yeah
Jodie Slaughter: end to have a like, "Ugh," and then they all laid there and they were like, "That was so fun, right?"
Andrea Martucci: Okay, so, so, so it's dramatic irony where the reader does not know that the character has been consenting the entire time, and then there's like a release valve at the end where you're let in on it?
Jodie Slaughter: I s- I don't know. I actually don't know that I buy that the reader doesn't know. I would say that for the most part, [00:25:00] if you're a reader who is reading something that is romance adjacent, I think it's actually m- way more of a letdown to read a book like that, go into it thinking that it's safe, and then come out of it... I think it's way more of a rug pull to have it be like, no, no, this person was... And I understand that, like, like, coercion is rape, like, without a doubt. I just recognize that, like, I can, I can be, like,
the disgusting, you know, person.
Andrea Martucci: No, no. Okay. No, but I I think this is, like, dubious consent, where it's
Jodie Slaughter: yes.
Andrea Martucci: you're like, "Eh, like she technically said yes, but-"
Jodie Slaughter: but if under, but under these, very heightened,
Andrea Martucci: under patriarchy, women are always being raped. I mean, that's like a very, like Andrea Dworkin. I'm not gonna ... i'm not gonna go there, like in reality. But like the ... I'm thinking of one story in particular, and I think it was like novella length, and I think the [00:26:00] setup was, I can't even remember who wrote this.
It was like somebody breaks into her house and, she's resisting, and it seems like dubious consent or rape.
Jodie Slaughter: yeah.
Andrea Martucci: And then they're like, "Ha." And she's like, "That was great, honey." And it's like her husband.
Jodie Slaughter: Yes.
Andrea Martucci: do you know what I mean? They've ... They're ... They just played a scene, right?
And I ... And I don't remember in that case if there was like, paratext, like the back of the cover led you to believe that or I don't remember the specifics of how it was framed. But, that example is consensual non-consent, where it's like, "Hey, we've negotiated.
I'm asking for this, ... But in the play, I will act
Jodie Slaughter: Yes.
Andrea Martucci: in a way that allows me to kind of like, act like I'm being coerced or forced,"
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah
That is the best version
Andrea Martucci: yeah
Jodie Slaughter: That is the, best most ethical,
Andrea Martucci: most politically correct?
Jodie Slaughter: version of what can exist. I wouldn't say [00:27:00] that Sought is the worst version, 'cause there are much worse, you know what I mean?
I w- I went through the, Amazon reviews of this book, just a little while ago because I was wondering if any of the reviews brought up, like the incest element. No one did,
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: Not even the one stars.
Andrea Martucci: Yeah
Jodie Slaughter: No one brought that up either, right?
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: No one brought up like not really, this heroine is experiencing like intense sexual coercion. She's being, being licked into
Andrea Martucci: T- yeah
Jodie Slaughter: li- into enjoying this and
Andrea Martucci: Her body is betraying her constantly
Jodie Slaughter: is betraying her constantly, which is a pretty common thing
I think it's often, done a lot if that's a thing that you're interested in exploring,
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: Like, this is not the avenue in which you're gonna find something that's, really thoughtful, a thoughtful exploration of that type of play, because this [00:28:00] isn't, presented as play. also think that's really important.
This isn't presented as like, kink, or, like, a holistic exploration of consensual non-consent or coerced
Andrea Martucci: Well, all of, all of the, the female characters are the most vanilla, prudish
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah
Andrea Martucci: ladies on Earth. That like, they're adult women who seem to have, very little sexual curiosity. They've never had a good sexual partner before. But they're also not curious, and like, I think that the way that they come to every kind of kinky, out of the ordinary sexual experience that isn't just like the most vanilla version of heterosexual Earth sex, they're like, "Oh my God, that's so weird. Why do I like this?"
That, that for me was like the hard part, 'cause I'm fine with coercive dynamics in some ways, but I like them to be named as [00:29:00] coercive. 'Cause I'm trying to think, like Alice Coldbreath actually has, like structurally, weirdly very similar...
Like her faux medievals structurally are very similar to Claire Kent's dystopian series, in that there's some forced proximity situation, right? Like, we have to get married for some reason. But the way structurally the way the pattern is that it's like, well, we have to be together, and we both acknowledge the reality of why we need to be together, but we're still gonna continue to like negotiate what this means for us.
The situation pushes them to be together and have to negotiate it. So like that's the kind of forced to be together part I do enjoy. But like, this
Jodie Slaughter: that is, is, um, not-- I think you're not... I think that the type of coercion that you're into is a sort of very external sort of forced [00:30:00] proximity type of thing that is already, icky, right? That's already, And that's icky enough for you without having to, without it having to also be
Andrea Martucci: Okay, but see, here's the thing is, I'm trying to not turn it into, like, a, a spectrum that, like, one is good, one is ... Or, like, one is less bad than the other. Do you know what I mean? Because I think it's just, the fantasy that I want to repeatedly enact and experience is just different.
And I think it's more about that, emotional intimacy, but also, bringing down the chaos. Whereas I thought this book, like again, I'm not saying it's, like, good or bad. This book is much more about, like, oh my God, things are continuing to go out of control, and be- and I'm even more confused by my feelings, and, I have to just completely let go.
And I'm like, well, that's not [00:31:00] my fantasy. I say as the person who's like, "I can control this. I can control this. I can c- " You know what I mean? So look, I'm not saying my fantasy is healthier. Um,
Jodie Slaughter: just
Andrea Martucci: you know,
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah
Andrea Martucci: they're just different. And, and I truly d- I was like, I was like, I do not wanna come into this and make it seem like I'm shaming Jodie for
Jodie Slaughter: Oh,
Andrea Martucci: enjoying this, 'cause
Jodie Slaughter: you couldn't, don't worry.
Andrea Martucci: No. I, 'cause I enjoy plenty of things that I'm like, "Yeah, that is a pile of trash, but here's what I like about it," right? So, like, if you think about the feeling ... Like, when you buy one of Evangeline Anderson's books, and you're reading them, you obviously are still a sentient human being who, like, is aware of, what other people are gonna say about these books and whatever.
Those voices are in your head. But, what is your emotional experience? W- like, we've established that it's, a surrender fantasy. How does that, make you feel when you're reading it and after?
Jodie Slaughter: I will start by saying I kind of have [00:32:00] different groups of things I'm interested in romance. I also don't-- I wouldn't say that Evangeline Anderson is a, is an auto-buy for me, but she is someone - when you were talking about the Claire Kent series, something about the voice, something about the world, you were able to get lost in it. That's kind of a feat for me when it comes to like science fiction romance, 'cause I don't care for it. Like the alien stuff, I read a couple of the Ice Planet Barbarian books and I thought they were cute and, like fun, but
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: you know
Andrea Martucci: You were like, "I don't need 30 of these."
Jodie Slaughter: need th- I hardly needed two. Not 'cause they aren't good, I just don't, care about aliens.
I think that at the core it's just because I largely thought that the sex was pretty hot.
Andrea Martucci: Mm. Like were you skipping?
Jodie Slaughter: No, I wasn't skipping. I was reading, but,
Andrea Martucci: Okay
Jodie Slaughter: I was definitely reading. [00:33:00] I thought the sex was hot. I liked the escalation. I really liked the back and forth. I think the first episode we did, maybe the second episode I ever, I ever sh- appeared on Shelf Love was about alpha holes. Okay, the first. And,
Andrea Martucci: You were just some rando.
Jodie Slaughter: Just some random bitch.
Andrea Martucci: I was like, "I'll invite this author on. We'll see how it goes."
Jodie Slaughter: And here we
Andrea Martucci: And here we are.
Jodie Slaughter: Right back to where we started, where I am still like, yeah, there's something to tortured, very silly, tortured dynamic of taking the, quote unquote, "mean one" being able to like, I wouldn't say change, 'cause he's still mean at the end.
Andrea Martucci: No. He was never actually mean.
Jodie Slaughter: me- but that's, right? But that's another thing is that the stakes are super low because he isn't ever actually that mean. There are books I've read where the guy's like much meaner and I didn't like it. There's always an undercurrent of [00:34:00] tenderness, I suppose, with her mean guys.
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: you know?
Andrea Martucci: Well, you know, you know, like in the surrender fantasy, you know that they're not actually gonna hurt her. Or they don't intend on hurting her
Jodie Slaughter: Yes, it always feels super safe, especially because they don't intend on hurting her, you know that because, like, the reason he's tortured is because he feels like he's a bad person, even though realistically, y- you're like, "I understand the story. Like, you aren't. You had to do this thing for this reason." Instead of... it's not really a story of her, taking a bad guy and trying to, turn him into a good guy. It's a story of someone who is decent, who is tortured sort of needlessly. (we laugh)
Andrea Martucci: Ok, but this is an interesting point because, like,
Jodie Slaughter: I
Andrea Martucci: I will
Jodie Slaughter: really ho- I don't like them that bad. [00:35:00] Even my b-
Andrea Martucci: I will tolerate a very bad man
Jodie Slaughter: see that's more diff- I wrote a, I literally wrote a hitman novel wherein
Andrea Martucci: But he was also very nice.
Jodie Slaughter: to be really fucking nice." I also need him to have rules about refusing to kill women and children.
Andrea Martucci: Yeah.
Jodie Slaughter: There are s- there are really hard limits to me for how bad and also just mean and cruel he's gonna be.
It has to be to some people who, in the narrative I feel really deserve it
Andrea Martucci: Yeah. And I think like meanwhile, and by the way, like I don't think Claire Kent and Alice Coldbreath's heroes fall into what I'm about to say. They're like a particular brand of book I really enjoy for similar reasons. But I will read books where the main characters, particularly the men, do very bad things, and for me, that fantasy is not about, for me at least I think, is [00:36:00] not about necessarily like, I can change him
Jodie Slaughter: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Martucci: you know? It's more like
Jodie Slaughter: I can harness this and use it for my own good?
Andrea Martucci: No, I mean, I don't, I don't even think it's that. I think it's like the f- to me it feels like we all, people, human beings, all hurt each other all the time without meaning to, and it doesn't matter if they meant to or not, sometimes things really hurt.
And it feels to me like exaggerating and heightening the experience that a lot of people have in romantic relationships where it's like you have these conflicts and you have to decide, is this a deal breaker or not? And do I believe that the other person has recognized the harm they've done? Do I recognize how I'm contributing to this dynamic?
Like, how can we choose to do something different instead of continuing on [00:37:00] as we always have? It's dysfunctional. This is not working for me. I need to do something different. And like there's varying degrees. Like, there's some books where the onus of change is completely on the bad male main character who's, doing egregious, like just like objectively very bad things.
But then sometimes it's more shared, sometimes the heroine is, like very defensive and like needs to realize "This isn't working for me. I need to change something." But so to me, I never take it... It doesn't feel literal in my fantasy, right?
It's-- It feels like a, "Okay, what I wanna see here is the negotiation. I wanna see a partnership fantasy." The surrender fantasy doesn't work for me because I don't see any negotiation. Like, to me, it feels like coercion, not negotiation. It's like beating somebody down softly, very gently.
But you know. They're literally like, "I just wanna pleasure you." And she's like, "Oh, I don't know." And to me, I'm [00:38:00] like, "What the fuck don't you know?" Like, what, what's the problem?
Jodie Slaughter: You
Andrea Martucci: Like
Jodie Slaughter: I also think this is it, as a person who knows you
Andrea Martucci: You do
Jodie Slaughter: pretty well, I think, I mean, I, I, I know I understand completely why you feel this way, but, the idea of what the fuck don't you know is that it's like everything. (Andrea laughs) I don't know anything, and it's scary, and there's so many reasons it's scary.
And also, what happens if I, if I like this too much? What happens if I... You know, there's so...
Andrea Martucci: What do you mean you like it too much?! What do you mean?
Jodie Slaughter: Andrea,
Andrea Martucci: get it
Jodie Slaughter: know me, and you know things that I've liked too much and th- what has happened to me in the aftermath. Not that bad, but, like, you know, you get it. Like, I've liked This is, is the, this is the difference.
You can definitely like things too much. You can
Andrea Martucci: I can't,
Jodie Slaughter: can[00:39:00]
Andrea Martucci: 'cause I don't actually like things. I don't actually know how to find pleasure in anything, so
Jodie Slaughter: And I feel like I know how to find sort of an overabundance of pleasure in everything
Andrea Martucci: me.
Jodie Slaughter: it's
Andrea Martucci: need, I need somebody to control it for me.
Jodie Slaughter: W- You
Andrea Martucci: I just gave you a meaningful look
Jodie Slaughter: what, you want, the actual thing is not that you want someone to control it for you. It's that, you want a fantasy of being able to foist control onto someone else And to sort of pretend you aren't the one who is in control, because you are in control. To me the idea of surrender in this context is not about abdicating responsibility, about sharing it. It's
Andrea Martucci: Is it?
Jodie Slaughter: It's having another person who's like, "I'm responsible [00:40:00] for this with you."
Andrea Martucci: Oh, not being responsible just for yourself
Okay. Okay. Sorry. So you can... Sorry. You can share and it's letting go of the feeling of needing to control it all and being able to release some control. Okay
Jodie Slaughter: release, feeling, like, safe in that, because if you release this small area of,
control over whatever the thing is. There's a freedom involved in, feeling like, this situation is, controlled because this person
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: is, to some extent controlled and I am controlled.
That is what the core of, kink is, is that it is play. It is playing pretend
Andrea Martucci: But wait, what about... Okay, in this universe, though, I understand that framework in the relationship between the characters, but what about the [00:41:00] world building that creates, these, fated mate dynamics where-
Jodie Slaughter: Bioessentialist idea of that. I don't think there's anything that is in any way, subversive about a fated mate, not inherently, right? And not that exists in Evangeline Anderson's books. But I do think that, like, to acknowledge that when you're playing pretend, in submission, in, whatever, obviously it's based in like real dynamics, real, power differentials
Andrea Martucci: Well, and as I've, I've said many times, the reason we find this interesting is because we live in a real world where these power dynamics are relevant to us, right? We're not going to these stories because we enjoy the power differentials. We're trying to resolve the pain or conflict of the power differentials in different [00:42:00] ways, right?
Jodie Slaughter: I was just gonna say, In something like this where it isn't presented as a play, it isn't presented as kink or anything like that, it is
Andrea Martucci: Were you just coerced into accepting a beverage?
Jodie Slaughter: Maybe.
Andrea Martucci: I see the door open and a beverage, an iced coffee is placed down, and then, hands are clasped. It's the most adorable thing on Earth. Okay
Jodie Slaughter: Excuse me. Sorry, I'm Sorry, so sorry. Not allowed to
Andrea Martucci: You were forced to be taken care of just now?
Jodie Slaughter: be taken care of. Uh, where was I? Right. Oh, yes. Okay. So i- in a world like this where, it, it's not play. It's not... There's nothing like, at
the end we get to it and everybody tumbles, and is like, "Wow, wasn't that such a fun scene to do?"
Andrea Martucci: And they rip off their costumes
Jodie Slaughter: rip off the, like, dual dick dildo
Andrea Martucci: "We're not brothers.
Colleagues."
Jodie Slaughter: not brothers, we're [00:43:00] colleagues. Now that adds a different, "I'm your guys' boss. Isn't that wild?"
Andrea Martucci: We're not brothers. He's my son.
Jodie Slaughter: Fuck. See, there are ways it could be worse.
Andrea Martucci: Yeah. And my mind immediately went to all of them.
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah, in a world like that, you're... I don't know. I think it's easy, it- much in the way the fantasy that it's easy for you to fall into is the one where, a woman is raped, sexually assaulted by her hero, and is able to have genuine, pushback, genuine feistiness, and they're able to sort of to, there. Mine is something of a, like, this woman is allowed to be in this, like, deeply unendingly chaotic life, right? This is like I'm going to be [00:44:00] speaking in a really heteronormative way because I'm talking about this book, and also because most of the time, this fantasy
Andrea Martucci: We live in a heteronormative society. Like
Jodie Slaughter: um, woman is... she is allowed to be coerced with,
Andrea Martucci: Uh-huh
Jodie Slaughter: don't know, let's just say safety. The safety that, the people who are coercing her, the man, the men, are ultimately safe for her, are
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: ultimately not going to hurt her, that the surrender that she exhibits is ultimately not going to lead her to pain and strife, and are instead going to lead her to freedom or whatever.
Th-that's the thing that we're playing out when we're playing. This is just the fantasy of like, what if they're not playing,
Andrea Martucci: What if she does have to orgasm to make her ship go into space? What if she does have to let him [00:45:00] fill her so that the savages don't kill them? What- and what if they have to do it with other people standing behind a screen so they can't see them?
Jodie Slaughter: okay,
Andrea Martucci: But
Jodie Slaughter: Evangeline Anderson is also, I think this is really important, is
Andrea Martucci: I thought she was really gonna do the voyeurism thing, and she, like, really pulled her punches there
Jodie Slaughter: She pulls punches is that she's, like, kind of trying to cover so many different, like, kinks in one
Andrea Martucci: Mm.
Jodie Slaughter: that I do think there's an issue with them all falling short. I would've loved, a tried and true voyeurism in that way. Like, it
better
Andrea Martucci: It's basically like a sex club fantasy. Like, "Oh, no, we have to get on stage at a sex club or else... A- and, I have to do this to pay a debt, otherwise my father is gonna get shot," or I don't know, something.
Jodie Slaughter: Cause there's one, I think I've started it but I didn't finish it, but there's one in the series, it's not a twin [00:46:00] Kindred, it's just like a regular one guy Kindred I forget
Andrea Martucci: Regular,
Jodie Slaughter: forget his subspecies
Andrea Martucci: ugh.
Jodie Slaughter: But it is like a true, like BDSM romance, like the alien and, and his bride have like a dominant submissive relationship. It isn't my preferred dynamic. I'm not into master slave stuff.
Andrea Martucci: Why not?
Jodie Slaughter: So I d- I
Andrea Martucci: Say more about that
Jodie Slaughter: so I never finished it, but I, I, and I won't, but I do wonder how that was. 'Cause I thought that the book that she wrote, like the daddy book, thought it was like interesting.
Andrea Martucci: Wait. This is the one with the cops you talked about? W- where does the daddy element come in?
Jodie Slaughter: So lot of these women end up turning up dead. I think
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: overdose on some type of drug, the [00:47:00] connection is that they've all been, like, submissives at this, like, underground sex club/ it's like a big house, and they all, whatever. And all of the dynamics, the submissive and dominant dynamics are, like, daddy-girl, so they have to go undercover. But, much in the Evangeline Anderson, like, her oeuvre, is incredibly resistant to this. She is not into it. She thinks it's, like, deeply deviant and perverted. She doesn't wanna call him Daddy. And he is also, like,
Andrea Martucci: And he's like, "You don't have to call me Daddy, except you do have to call me Daddy, otherwise we're gonna die."
Jodie Slaughter: low-key
Andrea Martucci: "Oh, I don't really want to." And he's like, he's like, "I know you don't want to, but you have to." And then she's like, "Okay, Daddy."
Jodie Slaughter: is, is external, right?
Andrea Martucci: Somebody standing there with a gun, "Call him daddy."
Jodie Slaughter: the coercive element is [00:48:00] they both really wanna solve this case, the rules of this, of the place that they're undercover at dictate the things that they have to do. The butt plug thing is that, they're like, if she doesn't wear a butt plug, you can't be here in the house. These are the rules," right? 'Cause it's this big, evil, perverted guy
Andrea Martucci: This is very similar to, I mean, it's not a person, but it's like the world building is doing that in Sought, right? Where it's like, "Hey, I didn't make the rules," but, like, you know, the rules of the twin bond
Jodie Slaughter: Well,
Andrea Martucci: such that if you don't, you know, let me penetrate you
Jodie Slaughter: I think it's her way of pulling the punch of not having to lean into the hero being coercive and then have to explore what that means for the character and the dynamic of the relationship. Like, she can abdicate all [00:49:00] responsibility of this element that she wants to introduce into the story
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: onto world building
Andrea Martucci: So it's a Russian nesting doll of surrender because even the author is essentially surrendering the active role and it's just like, it's just the world that I created. You know what I mean?
The part to me is I'm kind of like, "Oh, brother," you know? And by the way, like pun intended.
Um, where like I'm just like, I can get into a world and be transported, but it feels false and like it's not committed to the bit, where I'm like, I understand there has to be conflict of some kind, but like I guess I would prefer, like you're explaining this like, you know, cop thing, where she's secretly thril- like she's kind of like, "Oh, God, that's hot."
Like, like, "Ooh, oh, that's hot," but "This is my boss," or like, "This is my partner," and like, "I shouldn't wa-" [00:50:00] I'm okay with that. Like, "Ooh, I don't wanna seem too eager, but goddamn, that's hot."
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah.
Yeah, I think that The Cop novel is, is-- I read it and it is a book that has elements that like appeal to me deeply that I think probably it could have been a pretty staple read in my favorites if that had been the case. She, the heroine is quite like viscerally disgusted and then all of these things are introduced where like they have to
Andrea Martucci: It's always like pushing the envelope a little bit more. Like, you have to do a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And, and, and that, that is the part that actually feels the most like, icky to me, personally, is it's the just wearing down slowly. Like it's not, that she's [00:51:00] actually realizing she wants something and is just being less resistant to it, it's that it's actually just incrementally like, "Well you let me do this. So now I gotta do this, and I know you're..." That's the part that feels like the most
Jodie Slaughter: It doesn't feel like a real, like blossoming or opening up.
Andrea Martucci: Yeah
Jodie Slaughter: think that what's so fascinating is that book I do think it's interesting for these reasons, but it's much ickier to me than Sought is. There's something about sort of, for lack of a better word, like biological imperative
That makes it less gross to me.
I can put my hands up in a, "We literally have no choice. This is a fuck or die situation.
I can put my horse on that cart way easier than like, it's like, just leave and solve the crime another way? You know what I mean?
Andrea Martucci: [00:52:00] Well, okay, but, but remember when we were talking about The Savage and the Swan, and I was like, "Well, Dade's a serial killer, but he's in a fantasy world, so we don't call him a serial killer," even when you can kind of recognize the dynamics of it? And it's interesting because you were like, "Well, I would rather just, like, have a serial killer."
But it's interesting because you're saying in this scenario, you're like, "No, give me the completely up world."
Jodie Slaughter: This is sex based, and that is different. Do you know what I mean?
Andrea Martucci: Oh, okay. Say more. No, no, what do you mean? I don't know what you mean
Jodie Slaughter: Serial killer is fine. Depending. You know, obviously
Andrea Martucci: have that on the record?
Jodie Slaughter: Depends on who he's killing. It's like Aileen Wuornos? Hey, no.
Andrea Martucci: Wait, wait, wait. So you're fine... Okay, so, so, so you acce- you accept, uh, no, sorry, I wanna be clear. I'm not, I'm not trying to m- say, like, "Jodie, there's something wrong with you." I'm not. I'm not. I'm just... I'm trying to, like, parse the, different psychological dynamics at play here. So when we're talking about a serial killer, you're like, "Well, but [00:53:00] a serial killer in the real world who's killing people who deserve it, I, Jodie Slaughter, find that much more tolerable as a dynamic than a fantasy world where somebody's essentially doing serial killing, but it's essentially more random and unguided by some moralism. But in a sex-based way, when we're not talking about killing people, we're just talking about fucking people, I buy it less in the real world, and I buy it more as a dynamic in a created universe where the rules are different."?
Jodie Slaughter: Yes. I don't know that the serial killer thing is a tolerability issue. I think it's just
Andrea Martucci: Hmm
Jodie Slaughter: more interesting because I
Andrea Martucci: Hmm
Jodie Slaughter: don't care for fantasy generally.
Andrea Martucci: Okay, so it's a
Jodie Slaughter: I just find it inherently less interesting
Andrea Martucci: and I know you said that alien and sci-fi wasn't like your favorite, but Like [00:54:00] in the Evangeline Anderson world, what does it like unlock for you? Is it because the biological imperatives are different?
Jodie Slaughter: I think so.
Andrea Martucci: You actually do create a different, paradigm
Jodie Slaughter: Yes. And I also-- I think it creates a different paradigm. It creates a and, like, kind of unique relational dynamic, in the twin ones.
I am into paranormal, which I know that many will argue that it's like fantasy
Andrea Martucci: werewolves
Jodie Slaughter: werewolves, vampires. I can get into certain shifters.
I'm not reading badger shifters, you know? Like, there's somewhere I'm like, if the animal's a sexy animal, I can get into it.
Andrea Martucci: Okay, please define what makes a sexy animal, Jodie.
No, I really wanna know. I really wanna
Know.
Jodie Slaughter: a wolf,
Andrea Martucci: we all do this. We all categorize animals as sexy animals or cute animals
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah, if it's cute, it's a no.
Andrea Martucci: So it's, it's a large [00:55:00] carnivore
Jodie Slaughter: A large carnivore is okay. I don't want it to be, like, water.
I don't want, like, seal
Andrea Martucci: You don't want an orca
Jodie Slaughter: No. I don't want a orca. I don't want a dolphin. I don't want, a dog. Sam from True Blood or from the Sookie Stackhouse series, always, inherently like, "He's not sexy. He has to fucking shift into a dog."
Andrea Martucci: Okay, because dogs are friendly and, they're, they're not, they're not dangerous.
Jodie Slaughter: They're not dangerous.
Andrea Martucci: They're domesticated.
Jodie Slaughter: Even if he was a pitbull, he wouldn't be... I'm like, Alcide is a fucking wolf. That is,
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: You know, ugh. Because that's what you want out of that, you want in a para-, you want a sense of danger
involved in like this person is or could be
A killer at any moment
Andrea Martucci: And they have a different biological structure, right? And, different biological rules. Like, well, in our culture we do X, and like, I can smell your arousal [00:56:00] and
Jodie Slaughter: And
Andrea Martucci: you know
Jodie Slaughter: fantasy is hard just because I, like, don't think elves are sexy.
I don't wanna alienate (Andrea: alienate, hehe) the fantasy readers 'cause I do respect it as a genre, like I respect all genre fiction, as an ongoing, but
Andrea Martucci: But there's some you respect more than others.
Jodie Slaughter: I enjoy more than others.
Andrea Martucci: I just... Like, it is my project on this podcast to, like, get you on recording saying things that are like
Jodie Slaughter: The most heinous shit possible that'll ruin my career.
Andrea Martucci: I'm like, "Say more about that." I'll just hit record now.
Jodie Slaughter: It's like talking to an evil journalist
Andrea Martucci: Yeah,
So okay, but I think there, there was this scene towards the end, where God, I'll be honest. I was really having trouble, and I started, skimming. And I got to the part where three become two and, it seemed like she literally thinks she's gonna die. And again, she has to have an orgasm so that they can rocket into space and save her and this other woman.
And [00:57:00] that is bizarre in the sense... only in the sense of how they go about the sex scene, which involves, they're like, "All right, we're gonna do it." And then Deep brings up essentially a video camera with a display, and he's like, "I want you to be able to see what we're doing to you."
I'm like, yo, she is gonna die, and you're all gonna die if she doesn't orgasm, and you're, like, setting up this... Like, I, I was just like, what the fuck? Okay. But, but the purpose of doing that... Again, This should've been not the orgasm that has to, save everybody's lives. Just me? I don't know.
Jodie Slaughter: I agree this should have been one of the earlier orgasms
Andrea Martucci: Yeah. But he's- he brings up essentially a monitor where she can see the things that are happening out of her direct vision, and, it's very extended in that she is observing from outside. In fact, the very beginning of the story, she's essentially having an out-of-body experience where she's observing, her lifeless [00:58:00] body
Jodie Slaughter: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Martucci: them doing things like caretaking to her, and then other things happening.
But then at the end, she's literally, narrating, like, the redheaded girl. Like, he does X to the redheaded girl. And it's a very interesting moment of voyeurism, very voyeuristic narrative framing, while at the same time it, - it's dissociative, but it's, like, allowing her...
'Cause we didn't even talk about, the plus size, and I'm putting this in quotes. The, the whole thing where she's explicitly a size 18 on Earth, and, on their planet, women of her size are considered elites because they're the most desirable, the most beautiful. Thin women are not considered, desirable or the most desirable.
So it's a fantasy where, a body type that is not, seen as desirable on Earth let's invert that and create a dynamic where it's not just, somebody who happens to like that, it's actually an entire [00:59:00] society that, worships your body type. Wow, what a beautiful fantasy to invert that and just you're now in the privileged position as opposed to...
You know,
Jodie Slaughter: I respect that fantasy much less
Andrea Martucci: no, it's fine. It's-- I'm not, I'm not here, I'm not here to fix the world. I'm fine with, like, fixing it for yourself. It's fine. But she still can't let go of the baggage she has on Earth where she's like, "I don't understand why you would wanna be with me. Don't you wanna be with, these beautiful, svelte, women on your... And you guys are so hot." And they're like, "What are you talking about? You're the most beautiful creature on Earth. Why would you wanna be with us? We're so damaged." You know, and it's a little bit like, okay, what- oh, oh brother.
But it allows for this moment to be like, "Wow, maybe I am sexy," and "Wow, look at them." Not just like how do I feel when they do things to me, but wow, they really are worshiping the redheaded girl, and I can actually see how the redheaded girl can be appealing and beautiful. It's interesting 'cause it's like m- that part of it, I was like, "Oh, okay."
That was the part I could maybe get the most into, [01:00:00] because also it was a bit less like ... There was too much talking. And it, again, it was the coercion. Like, in the earlier scenes it was like, "You have to let us do this." I'm like, "Shut the fuck up and just do it." Like, first of all, you can all hear each other's thoughts.
You can just shut the fuck up more, okay?
Jodie Slaughter: We did not discuss that there's, telepathy involved.
Andrea Martucci: Oh my God. And then Lock keeps calling her my lady. I ... That part, I could not ... Every single time, I had a full body shudder. I was like, "Blah." Like, "My lady." It was so groveling. I just, I couldn't. Because it, because he never seemed like a real person.
Jodie Slaughter: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Martucci: He always seemed
Jodie Slaughter: the light twin is always less
Andrea Martucci: ugh
Jodie Slaughter: Discovered than the dark twin
Andrea Martucci: Less. And you know how we know that? Because his dick is slightly smaller than Deep's.
Jodie Slaughter: There you go
Andrea Martucci: There you go. But I was just like, "Can you guys shut up and let me enjoy this? I could potentially get into this if you just shut your mouths." You [01:01:00] know?
Jodie Slaughter: Are you a, are you a person who enjoys your sex scenes with, minimal talking?
Andrea Martucci: No. No. I like talking, but this talking, this, their talking annoyed the shit out of me
Jodie Slaughter: They're having really silly dialogue. Just like genuine Yeah. I will say that there, the dialogue in the sex scenes
Andrea Martucci: M'lady?
Jodie Slaughter: is like m'lady
Andrea Martucci: "You have to let me suck your pussy, m'lady." Like, ugh. Like, but like it's not even ... Okay, I could even get into it if it was like a little bit of like a femdom thing, and like it, if, okay, let's say ... Oh, I'm just gonna like go off into a wild excursion for a second. You've got a fantasy world or an alien world or whatever, and like she's the actual like queen or whatever, and he's a servant.
I'm like, yeah, play with that dynamic. Go ahead. Go do it. You know? I, in that case, I would not hear, "M- [01:02:00] m'lady." Like,
Jodie Slaughter: queen
Andrea Martucci: "My queen." I could handle that.
Jodie Slaughter: I'm sure you could
Andrea Martucci: But okay, here's the thing, is I think ... When, wait, I wanna go back to like talking about control, is I obviously have a fantasy of control.
Like competence porn is my porn. I'm like, "Yes, and if you're competent enough and you think the right things and do the right things to control the world, it'll all work out." You know? (Jodie: Just Dr. Evil?!) Like, "And my little dog, too. Ah." Wait, what does Dr. Evil say to Mr....? Oh, God.
Jodie Slaughter: I don't remember
Andrea Martucci: It's the ... What's the cat's name? Ah, we're losing our culture.
Oh. It's a cha- like I love a, I don't know, chaotic world or like a world where maybe there are things [01:03:00] that like externally forcing you to do something. But managing through it is like where the competency comes in. Okay, Loretta Chase, by the way, has the most competent heroes and heroines I think I've ever come across in like anything.
And I love it. I'm like, "I will eat this up." They're always one step ahead,
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah, I don't want to read that every time.
Andrea Martucci: They've like ... Ugh, they're always figuring everything out
Jodie Slaughter: I love, I kind of love seeing people like really fumble through and ultimately get to an end, I don't need... I, yeah, my desire is not one of of a constant competency. I think it's just like about steadfastness and tenderness the whole way through.
I'm not saying this is, that's exhibited in this but
Andrea Martucci: I'm talking about lots of texts outside of, yeah, yeah, yeah
Jodie Slaughter: I, think that like I [01:04:00] understand and find really interesting the characters and the people who don't know, and are afraid. And not that people who are competent are not also afraid like, but you know.
Andrea Martucci: Oh, we're very afraid.
Jodie Slaughter: Of course.
Um, and I wouldn't say like incompetent, but just, but, people who are really making a fucking mess of it,
Andrea Martucci: Yeah.
Jodie Slaughter: are,
Andrea Martucci: Yeah, see, I'm, my
Jodie Slaughter: manage in the end to clean it up and get it together to some extent. But even if it isn't all cleaned up at the end, I'm like, "Yeah, okay. You figured it out with tenderness and the power of love and good sex and whatever
Andrea Martucci: Like for me, they have to crack that nut wide open and pick up all the pieces and put them together again. Like I, yeah, like that is my, my fantasy. And I just, I do s- I find it endlessly fascinating [01:05:00] that we enjoy the same genre, and yet the things that we're looking for in books and like the emotional needs that we're looking for it to
Solve.
And it's not like sub-genre specific, right? It's not like, " Well, that's why I like paranormal." You could take two historical novels, or two sci-fi novels, or two fantasy novels, or two contemporary novels, and, you would like one and I would like the other, and we each dislike, the one the other person likes.
Because it's like what fantasy is this trying to address? And authors do specialize in a particular type of fantasy.
Jodie Slaughter: Oh, yeah
Andrea Martucci: Like, like even if the tropes change. And I don't wanna turn it into a like it must all be related to the author, but also I kinda think it is
Jodie Slaughter: I would say that, as an author, I am in every way exploring
People ask me all the time, people who find out that I write [01:06:00] romance and then they-- who
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: who don't read romance or much of anything when they're like, "Oh, do you write about your boyfriend? Are you writing about..." And I just say no and like, "Ha ha." But 'cause the truth of the matter is that, like, I'm very much exploring things that I want or things that I don't want, things that I hate, things that I, whatever. But I think there's always a backdrop of a very particular type of fantasy. There's a core to all of my stuff, that exists just because it's the thing I'm interested in exploring when it comes to romance, and that differs with dynamics and tropes and plots and whatever.
But there is always, I think, a very similar undercurrent, and I think that's why we go back to our favorite authors. It's why we don't get... we don't get bored with them. [01:07:00] think sometimes we stop reading them.
Andrea Martucci: Even when we're bored with them
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah, even when we're bored with them, I think sometimes there are authors who we love who we stop reading either because they start exploring a different fantasy that we are not so interested in exploring with them, we-- the fantasy that we have changes, 'cause I do think that, it's not static thing.
I think some people
Andrea Martucci: Yeah
Jodie Slaughter: you know, it changes. We've talked about this a lot. I'm, like, very different, my life is so different, and the things that I want are so different from when I first started writing romance, which-- or publishing romance, which makes sense, 'cause I was, like, 20. (Andrea: a child)
Yeah, I was, like, 23 or something, 24. I don't know. And
Andrea Martucci: And now you're an older child
Jodie Slaughter: But I do think that, like even still looking back that like undercurrent is always gonna be there 'cause I recognize that like thing that I'm interested in exploring is like pretty intrinsic to who I am because of [01:08:00] all kinds of things that, that m- make me up.
Andrea Martucci: Okay, and like I think to come back to the question of, "Oh, is that what you do? Are you writing about things you do with your boyfriend?" I think that's like a very literal-mindedness, right? Like here's the thing, is when I talk about my fantasy of control, like that is the latent bit that is underneath certain dynamics that I want to explore, but that's not literally what's happening, right?
So if it, if I read a story where, you know, they're like in an arranged marriage and they do a particular sex act or whatever, that's literally what's happening, but that's not necessarily the dynamic that's being explored or the ... like the same things can happen, but the way it's written and the way it makes you feel can be completely different author to author.
And that is the part, there's like the latent desire underneath it that's important, not the things that literally happen. And I think like it's very frustrating that so much of romance as it's [01:09:00] perceived from outside is so fucking literal, right?
Jodie Slaughter: Yes
I have a really difficult--
Andrea Martucci: Also from inside, but
Jodie Slaughter: I have a really difficult time with that as someone who writes romance and who has to engage with people, out in the world who are not fans. Or who even if they aren't fans, who don't tend to have an understanding of like it, or, and I wonder if it's-- I don't even know that it's romance specific.
I think a lot of these people are like, and I'm trying not to do like a noble savage view of just like normal people, but I don't think people engage with, a lot of people engage with any form of art or media on any lens than like, I'm not saying they do no analysis, but I can tell they're not doing much because of the way they engage with me [01:10:00] when am attempting to talk about my career, even on like just the most base level. Like I got into something, I wouldn't say, it wasn't like an argument, but I got into a pretty heated discussion with this guy on a bar patio last spring who at the very least I was able to talk, who had a very like, you know, straight man literature fan's idea of romance. First of all, I was a, I was able to like, get him to understand some things that he had never quite thought about because like misogyny, like, you know,
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: I was able to engage with him as somebody who like at the very least does care about books and is interested in what it means to explore the human experience through them, and that was something of an opening. And I [01:11:00] would say with most people, I just have to sort of laugh and be like, "No, ha"
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm. Media engagement can be very surface level. I enjoyed this, I didn't enjoy this. Why did you enjoy it? Why did you not enjoy it? Was the purpose to not enjoy it or to think that person did a bad thing? Ca- can you separate that person did a bad thing and I don't like it from, your enjoyment of the text or whatever?
Yeah, and again, even from within romance, sometimes I think that this is the panopticon controlling what people say, where when people are just- people stick to a very surface level. Like, "Oh, you like that book? Here's another book with that trope." Or "I liked this book. I did not like this book."
And sometimes I think it's also, some people just don't want to engage with things that deeply
Jodie Slaughter: that's, yeah, that's what I was coming back to. I think people just
Andrea Martucci: Which is fine.
Jodie Slaughter: For a lot of people escapism means having to [01:12:00] engage with things that deeply, and I think sometimes for us it means being able to engage with things deeply where the stakes are not that high. I still want to engage
Andrea Martucci: Yeah
Jodie Slaughter: with thing deeply and also be able to recognize that the stakes are not the same stakes that are there when I have to, like, engage with, like, interpersonal relationships and the ways that, and issues impact how we engage with each other.
Which you have to do with everything, but, this is a very controlled and exploratory and insular and, often you can think about a thing and there's something pretty personal and specific to the analysis that we're allowed to do here about this thing where at the end of the day, we're gonna stop recording and it's gonna be like, "Wow," like, you know, "We cracked that nut wide open."
Andrea Martucci: And pat ourselves on the back
Jodie Slaughter: It isn't going to be like, we have to go decompress and, cry because we've [01:13:00] just explored the bounds of like, how difficult it is to have a relationship with each other as two flawed human beings or whatever.
Andrea Martucci: Yeah.
Jodie Slaughter: A lot of people don't wanna... They're like, "I'm, I already have to do this one thing.
Anything that I engage with media-wise, even if it is something that is, seen as a very, quote-unquote 'deep thing,' I wanna just be able to, blink on, blink off
Andrea Martucci: Okay, because I think that when you hear people say, "It's not that deep,"
First of all, I agree with you that it is that deep, but is it life or death? No.
Jodie Slaughter: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Martucci: it is that deep. You certainly can, explore a lot about meaning and yourself and blah, blah, blah through these things. I think that "it's not that deep" comes up when somebody is making a point that challenges someone's belief, usually about themselves
Or about something that they enjoyed that they don't wanna think about, and so it becomes a [01:14:00] defensive, like, it can't be that deep
Jodie Slaughter: Mm-hmm.
Andrea Martucci: because it can't be that deep and it can't have anything to do with that because that's something I'm not willing to...
I- it's not that I'm not just willing to engage with it myself, it can't exist. Because if it does exist, that kind of creates a yawning gap of existential dread that I'm not willing to acknowledge. That's my interpretation anyways.
Jodie Slaughter: it's really about, people who are afraid to open themselves wide and see what's inside, and really engage with everything that's in there, even if it's bad and
Andrea Martucci: It's a control tactic,
Right? Because, I think this also comes up where it's like when... Okay, you're having a discussion, and actually this makes me think of the conversation you had with the guy in the bar. You had an intense conversation where [01:15:00] you didn't necessarily agree with each other, but you were both committed to
Jodie Slaughter: of viewpoint
Andrea Martucci: uh, well, no, I was gonna say you're committed to trying to understand each other, and you both have a viewpoint that is different, but you're like, your viewpoint doesn't make sense to me, but I want it to make sense.
I want to understand, and I'm gonna ask questions with that in mind. Whereas, I think there's certain situations where it's just any sort of disagreement gets framed as conflict, and conflict is bad, and we'll never reach alignment on what the answer is here, and therefore, we cannot have this conversation.
So it's kind of like a comfort with ambiguity and a comfort with, holding the tension of, I believe something to be true, and I'm gonna engage with this other person who could change my mind,
also could not change my mind, but I'm going to, accept... I'm going to open my mind to a different worldview in a way where I'm not [01:16:00] threatened.
If my worldview is threatened by their worldview, I'm okay with it shifting 'cause I don't need to hold on so tight to this. And it's not about being right and wrong. It's literally just about, accepting that, just because you don't start in the same place doesn't mean you can't both change with...
But also that the end goal isn't that you both end up in the same place. And you can kinda walk away from that. I mean, I don't know how it ended with the bar conversation, but you can kinda be like,
Jodie Slaughter: I see him all the time. He's actually pretty great.
Andrea Martucci: Yeah
Jodie Slaughter: whether or not he believes in, the, I believe to be the sort of intrinsic, deep, interesting, exploratory nature of romance novels or
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm.
Jodie Slaughter: it's all, it's all, it's all love.
Andrea Martucci: But the, and that's the thing is like I, I find, conversations where I don't agree with somebody, super interesting. 'Cause I personally am not threatened.
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah
Andrea Martucci: You have a different fantasy than me, and I'm not like, "Well, Jodie, I need to convince you that my fantasy is right."
I just, I'm d- and this is [01:17:00] my toxic trait, is I'm like, "But I wanna understand."
Jodie Slaughter: Well, that's what I was saying. I think it's more about, especially when it comes to, a thing as interesting and personal as your taste in, books, it is, I think having this and disagreeing is such a space of being able to learn something really interesting about the other person or have confirmed things that you already feel like you know deeply about the other
Andrea Martucci: Or, about yourself too.
Jodie Slaughter: about yourself
Andrea Martucci: I'm more concerned with myself.
Jodie Slaughter: I mean
Andrea Martucci: I love you, but
Jodie Slaughter: everyone is like navel-gazey. A big part of, spirited debate and discussion is being able to navel-gaze some. Being like,
"Oh my didn't know that about myself. Wow, that's so interesting.
Andrea Martucci: Oh my God. I'm so fascinating.
Dame Jodie Slaughter, director of DP, digital publishing, what should people go read from Jodie Slaughter that helps them engage with your deep [01:18:00] rich inner fantasy life
Jodie Slaughter: What's happening right now is that I'm feeling good and I'm gonna go get a massage after this, a couples massage
Andrea Martucci: Noice
Jodie Slaughter: great.
Andrea Martucci: Oh
Jodie Slaughter: what
Andrea Martucci: Are the massager's masseuse's hands going to merge together into
Jodie Slaughter: I really hope not. I did, on the form I selected please no merging.
Andrea Martucci: Mm-hmm
Jodie Slaughter: They has a selection for if you want merge, and I was like, "No, no merging."
What should people engage with? I would say that you should go read All Things Burn.
Andrea Martucci: Hit Man with a Heart of Gold
Jodie Slaughter: I've been lately. I mean, I'm but read, read my, young first fantasy who is ultimately not that bad.
And I'm telling you to read this because last night I saw a film titled Is God [01:19:00] Is, and I also think that everyone should go see it if it's available for you to see in theaters and, when it's available for you to rent at home, do that too. Really good, Southern Gothic revenge flick that is not a romance, but, if you are interested in themes of justice.
Andrea Martucci: How did it make you feel?
Jodie Slaughter: Made me feel, really fired up and really devastated the effects of it means to seek revenge and attempt to find justice that ultimately, does not exist. What it means to try to find justice for yourself and the consequences therein. The sort of brilliant rage therein. I thought it was-- I just thought it was fantastic.
Also, if you're interested in, sisters,
Andrea Martucci: We only talked about brothers
Jodie Slaughter: These are not those kinds of sisters. There's no vagina fusing and, it-- I'm
Andrea Martucci: Nobody ever writes about vagina fusing. How [01:20:00] come?
Jodie Slaughter: That's a human centipede type of scenario.
Andrea Martucci: Ugh
Jodie Slaughter: Yeah. All my books have, sisters in them, because I'm very interested in sister relationships.
Andrea Martucci: Platonic
Jodie Slaughter: Obviously. Please, my God, guys. I'm not-- I don't like the incest element. I think I disassociated upon reading this book originally and had myself convinced that it wasn't twin-cest.
Andrea Martucci: They're not twins and they're not brothers
Jodie Slaughter: and they're not brothers." But they're fully twins and brothers, so you know, my bad. Yeah. Otherwise, I am working on stuff quietly which I will not talk about, but when you need to know, you'll know, and you can find out via Instagram at Jodie, J-O-D-I-E, underscore Slaughter, like house And that's it
Andrea Martucci: Thanks again for being here. You are in a beautiful audio recording space. I [01:21:00] love it.
Jodie Slaughter: I'm a nepo partner
Andrea Martucci: A nepo partner?
Jodie Slaughter: 'Cause I have I'm like a nepo partner 'cause I have like access to like cool, spaces because of my partner's job now.
Andrea Martucci: Well, and if you wanna learn more about that, you should go listen to the episode... Shit, was this the episode where, like, I was, like, unhinged?
Jodie Slaughter: Yes. We were talking about,
Andrea Martucci: Dominate Your Desire, it was a book that we never actually, we didn't name the title
Jodie Slaughter: oh, yes, that's right. That's right. Oh, good
Andrea Martucci: But, we had a whole discussion about BDSM, and then I literally had ... I wasn't being nihilistic, but I was just like, "What does anything mean?" I went, I went down
Jodie Slaughter: were
Andrea Martucci: I went down, like
Jodie Slaughter: You were being a little nihilistic
Andrea Martucci: I had, like, an ontological, crisis.
Jodie Slaughter: Yes
Andrea Martucci: And by that I mean a crisis of meaning
Jodie Slaughter: It was a crisis of meaning totally, I think we, we had spoken at some point after that and were kind of like revisiting it when you were editing it, and you were like, "Oh my God." 'Cause some things had [01:22:00] happened, in... not gonna, share the, that personal stuff, but you were like,
Andrea Martucci: Yeah
Jodie Slaughter: listening back to this episode and, I was for sure..." And I was like, "Yeah," I was also, I think really weird just because of, changes in my life, too.
I think our most unhinged episode, which is saying something 'cause we only ever talk about the wildest shit imaginable when I'm on the pod. Maybe that's not true...
Andrea Martucci: that's..
Jodie Slaughter: But. We talked about Anais Nin fucking her father
Andrea Martucci: Ugh, why do these things continue to come up in our conversations?
Jodie Slaughter: I think it's always my fault 'cause I was also like, "I think we should read Delta Venus." Then I was like, and then I started reading Delta Venus and I was like, "I fucking hate this. This is bad. Why does every, feminist, page is constantly pulling quotes from this book as if it's, deep feminist lit when it's, really heinous?"
Andrea Martucci: This is... Okay, th- this is the other thing I've noticed is people love a surface [01:23:00] level, diagnosis of a particular author. A- Anais Nin, sexy. And it's like, I mean, but not really. like, there's
Jodie Slaughter: She writes about sex
Andrea Martucci: There's this book I was recently digging into, it's a nonfiction book written by a scholar, and the title makes it seem like the book is about something that the book is actually making a very different thesis about.
And the number of times I've seen people say, "Yeah, well, thing is proven because of this book," and they pull it up, and I'm like, "Oh my God, you didn't read the book, did you?" Anyways, hilarious.
I'm trying to think, have we ever discussed a book where we both have very similar, not similar feelings, but, we're both like, "I like this"?
Jodie Slaughter: We,
Andrea Martucci: Ro- Al- Alisha Rai's
Jodie Slaughter: the
Andrea Martucci: dreaming of You
Jodie Slaughter: That, I was thinking about that earlier. Dreaming of You. I don't know. I have to think about that again. Maybe I have to reread it. I did really enjoy it. I read it, like, in real solitude. I was, like, staying at your house a- alone. [01:24:00] had murdered your whole
Andrea Martucci: Oh,
Jodie Slaughter: had locked your whole family in the basement.
Andrea Martucci: Because no, we went to Florida and you cat sat, yeah
Jodie Slaughter: I was alone, and it was, like, really nice and blissful. I was, like, taking a lot of baths, was reading the book. I really enjoyed it. I did. And I, you know me and my, bias against historical romance. But I was like, what did I really like about that novel?
What was it that really... Because I do think about it often, and I also, I bought a copy of it. I found a copy, when I was out, thrifting, and I bought a copy of it. But yeah, that one, those two, there must have been at least one more, right? There have been books that we have both disliked, like Delta Venus
Andrea Martucci: Yeah. After we get off the phone, what we should think about is now with this new understanding of our fantasies, the fantasies that we're, like, going to romance fiction for, I would be very interested in trying to find [01:25:00] a book
That, isn't just, a very good book that we're both like, "I appreciate this," but I don't know.
I would like to dig... I would like to... Yeah. Like, where we're both like, "Oh my God, that was it." And just, analyze it from the perspective of, like, are these fantasies we have, kind of oil and water, or can they be merged into one,
To penetrate our brains in the same way,
Jodie Slaughter: we might have to read two books
Andrea Martucci: you know?
Jodie Slaughter: books for that. We might both have to make a choice and
Andrea Martucci: Okay. Make a choice? No, but it- but you don't have to make a choice. You can just
have them both.
Jodie Slaughter: m-
Andrea Martucci: Sorry, I'm just m- I'm just continuing to make a comment about this book.
Jodie Slaughter: No, and I'm being too literal. Okay, yeah, I actually think that's a great idea
Andrea Martucci: Okay. Jodie, go enjoy your couples massage.
Jodie Slaughter: Thank
Andrea Martucci: Do it.
Jodie Slaughter: I will.
Andrea Martucci: Thanks for being here.
Jodie Slaughter: for having me.
Andrea Martucci: Bye.
Jodie Slaughter: Bye.
Andrea Martucci: Don't actually leave
Jodie Slaughter: I won't
Andrea Martucci: Hey, thanks for spending time with me today. If you enjoyed this [01:26:00] episode, please subscribe, rate, or review on your favorite podcast app or tell a friend. Check out shelflovepodcast.com for transcripts and other resources. If you want regular written updates from Shelf Love, you can increasingly find me over at Substack.
Read occasional updates and short essays about romance at shelflovepodcast.substack.com. Thank you to Shelf Love's $20 a month Patreon supporters, Gail, Copper Dog Books, and Frederick Smith. Have a great day. Bye.
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Guests
Alice Murphy, Alyssa Cole, Amanda Allen, Amanda Cinelli, Amanda Diehl, Andrea Martucci, Andrew Piper, Angela Toscano, Arielle Zibrak, Ash Dylan, Becky, Bree, Bree Hill, Candice Ransom, Carter Sherman, Charish Reid, Christina Fattore, Coltan Scrivner, Copper Dog Books, Dani Lacey, Danielle Knafo, Denise Williams, Diana Filar, Dr. Margo Hendricks, EE Ottoman, Emma, Emma Barry, Eric Selinger, Erin Leafe, Esme Brett, Fangirl Jeanne, Felicia Grossman, Funmi B., Hannah Hearts Romance, Helena Greer, Hsu Ming Teo, Huike Wen, Jack Harbon, Jayashree Kamble, Jennifer Crusie, Jess, Jessica Lyn Van Slooten, Jhen, Jodi McAlister, Jodie Slaughter, Joe Martucci, John Jacobson, Julia Quinn, Julie Moody-Freeman, Karelia Stetz-Waters, Kassi, Kate Clayborn, Katee Robert, Katherine Grant, Katrina Jackson, Kelly Reynolds, Kennedy Ryan, Kianna Alexander, Kini Allen, Kit Rocha, Laura J. Mayo, Leigh Kramer, Lucy Hargrave, Lucy Score, Lynell, Margarita Guillory, Margo Hendricks, Maria DeBlassie, Megan Erickson, Mia Sosa, Nicola Welsh Burke, Nicole Falls, Norma Perez-Hernandez, Penny Reid, Philippa Borland, Rebecca Romney, Rebekah Weatherspoon, Reformed Rakes, Renee Dahlia, Rosie Danan, Ruby Lang, Sandra Kitt, Sarah Rutherford, Sarah Skilton, Scarlett Peckham, Semilore Sobande, Sionna Fox, Sri Savita, Steve Ammidown, Suzanne Jefferies, Talia Hibbert, Tamara Lush, Tasha L. Harrison, Tehyah Carver, The Swoonies, Tif Marcelo, Tina Benigno, Whoa!mance, Whoamance, fangirl jeanne
Tags
antagonist april, audience reception, baudrillard, book discussion, book recommendations, business of books, cannibalism, category romance, contemporary romance, crossover podcast, dystopian romance, fairy tales, fandom, fanfiction, film discussion, genre discussions, historical romance, horror and romance, joyful hag book club, joyful problematization, joyful problematizing, jq editions, original scholarship, paranormal romance, pop culture in the classroom, problematic favorite trope, quarantine romance book club, queer romance, romance discourse, romance in pop culture, romance myths, romance novel discussion, romance novelist representations, romance novels, romance scholarship, romantasy, scholarly, scifi and fantasy romance, teaching popular culture, tell me about, tv show discussion, video available, young adult